Rianna Banana ~ Secrets of Thai Massage: From Ancient Healing to Modern Practice

Rianna Banana is a seasoned practitioner and trainer in the realms of Thai massage, yoga, and holistic retreats. With a foundational background in hotel management, Rianna transitioned her career towards yoga and bodywork, obtaining her yoga teacher certification in Rishikesh in 2019. She has further specialized in Thai massage, having studied at ITM in Chiang Mai where she completed advanced courses and teacher training. Currently, she operates out of a retreat center in Portugal, where she leads yoga classes, offers Thai massage sessions, and co-hosts holistic retreats throughout the year.

Visit Rianna here: https://www.riannabanana.com/

Key Takeaways:

• Rianna's exploration of Thai massage began with an impactful first experience in Bangkok, which led her to study extensively at the ITM school in Chiang Mai.
• She emphasizes the importance of consistency and simplicity in massage, shared with love, as witnessed during her studies at ITM.
• Rianna's weaves perspectives on vinyasa flow, meditation, and the mental health benefits of integrating yoga retreats into your journey of self-care and self-love.

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Chapters

• 0:03 Exploring Thai Massage Training and Experiences in Thailand
• 7:26 Exploring Thai Massage Education and Cultural Integration
• 15:18 Unexpected Consequences of Advertising Massage Services in Newspapers
• 16:47 The Cultural Significance and Misconceptions of Thai Massage
• 21:31 The Art of Thai Massage and Continuous Learning
• 29:34 Exploring Thai Massage Techniques and Cultural Variations
• 34:59 Understanding Energy Lines and Their Role in Thai Massage
• 37:48 Yoga Retreats and Multilingual Adventures in Portugal
• 45:22 Pursuing Passion and Gratitude in Thai Massage and Life

Transcript

0:32

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Hello and welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast today. My special guest is Rianna Banana. You can find her on her website, riannabanana.com and her Instagram handle is the same,@rihannabanana. Rianna Banana. Rianna Banana depends on how you want to say it, and I'm so grateful to have this chance to speak with her and the way that I found her. You'll hear very early in the episode I explain and but long story short, she's a Thai massage therapist and a yoga teacher. She currently is living and teaching in Portugal, and she hosts a retreat there twice a year. If you check out her website and Instagram handle, you can see it looks like an incredible location, and she's extremely passionate about Thai massage, and that's really what I wanted to do here, is highlight the school that we both studied and trained at the same school in Northern Thailand, and so I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Thank you so much, Rianna, for joining me here, and let's go ahead and begin. I'm so excited to have this chance to meet and speak with Rianna. Banana, Rihanna, how are you today? I'm good. Thank you, Todd. I you know, I'm really excited because I found you via looking for somebody who has I typed in it and massage, which is where I studied and trained in Thai massage and in Thailand, and I saw your photos, and I saw your profile, and I just got inspired to see somebody there, and it looked like you were really enjoying yourself and having fun, and all the photos were so for me, so reminiscent of my time's training there that I'm excited to get to the chance to talk to you and just hear what your adventure was like. Yes, thank you so much for reaching out. I just came back. It's a little over a week. This was the third time that I went to Thailand, specifically for Thai massage. I went to Thailand first time in 2010 and that's when I first experienced Thai massage. And it always stuck with me where it wasn't until, sorry, where did you have your first Thai massage? Was it at WaPo in Bangkok? It was in Bangkok, at a place that was recommended to me by some Dutch friends, and they said, if you're in Bangkok, you must definitely go there. And it was something I had just never experienced. Yeah, yeah. Was so different. Tell me what you thought, because I have my own feelings too. I'm so curious, like, what some of the thoughts were when you were getting your first time massage. I mean, first of all, it was just being dressed and getting to wear this outfit that was completely different from what we do in the Western world. Then there was like all this stretching and all the movements that someone else was doing for me, and I just felt so like it felt like a reset. I think that was my biggest takeaway After how long was your first session? How long? Yeah, did you do the one hour, two hour, three hours. I'm not sure it's like 15 years ago. It felt like hours might not have been I hear, yeah, I know that's one thing. I remember walking down the streets in Bangkok and seeing the signs that were like, one hour, two hour, three hour. And I thought, three hour time massage. I have to do it. Yes. So yeah, that always stuck with me. And what? When I what? So I studied hotel management. So I started off on a very different track, but as I started moving more towards yoga and body work, and started to do my yoga teacher training, that was in 2019 and when I graduated, very soon after, we were not allowed to touch anyone and not allowed to be near anyone because of COVID. So I never really got into assisting people in class, and I felt very like stay in my safe demo place at the front of the room. And that's why I thought maybe a time massage course will be useful to be more comfortable touching people, plus I had this great memory of it. And so the first effort I made in learning about Thai massage was an online course, which, I mean, it was COVID days, so that was the only thing available, but learning massage online, if you have no experience. For me, was very difficult. I wanted to ask you if that translates or not. I have not tried to offer a Thai massage course online, nor have I tried to take one. So I was so curious to find out what. Yeah, that's interesting that you said it's really difficult. I mean, I can imagine, if you know something about massage already and you want to learn new techniques, maybe that could work. But if you have no idea what you are doing, and the receiver has no idea what it's supposed to feel like, it's very, very hard. Did you have to have a body there to work on while you're watching a video or live stream of someone working? Was that kind of how you structure it? Because obviously, if you're watching a video, obviously, if you're watching a video and you have nobody to practice on, maybe get the pill. It was the other thing. Like, I'd have to go and ask my friends and say, Hey, can I do this on you? Can I do that on you? And then I'd have to watch the video. And it was very like, yeah, no, that didn't work for me. So as soon as we could travel again. I looked at ITM school in Thailand, because there is an ITM school in the Netherlands as well. In Amsterdam, I didn't know that I have a branch there. Yes, that's how I knew about them. Very cool. And yeah, basically what? As soon as I had the option to go to Thailand. That's what I did. And I went there to to study. What year was that? Oh 203 2003 very early, 2003 like the second of January. I was there. It took a little while for Thailand to kind of reopen back up. We had scheduled to host a yoga and Thai massage retreat down in copeng Yang in March. No, no, no. Sorry. We were gonna do in June of 2000 2000 so obviously that didn't happen. And then the whole process of watching like, well, when could we go? When could we do this? I remember, like the some of the protocol were so intense, like, fly into Bangkok, get tested there, then fly to Copenhagen, get tested there, then go to the hotel, get tested there, and wait to see if your test comes back negative. And then you can actually walk around. But when you can, you can't go over here. And I thought, oh, that doesn't sound that's not retreat vibes, no. So, um, that's amazing. And then tell me what your experience was like studying at ITM in Chiang Mai. I have very fond memories myself, so I'm so curious to hear what your what your thought, your feeling was is. Yeah, it's so cool. And it was so interesting when you send me some that you'd been there, and I saw the photos on your website, and I realized, like, pretty much nothing has changed. I know I just saw your graduation photo because you had made mention. You said, yeah, that same picture is still on the wall. And then when I saw your graduation photo, I'm like, You're right that it looks like that. I think that photo that you saw was in 2004 so that's like, what 20 years ago? So, yeah, nothing, nothing has changed. Surely, they're in a different building, though, or no, is it the same? They are in a different building. And also, they're in renovation. At the moment, they acquired the building next door, so they are growing the school. Yeah, there is lots of students, especially this time of year, which is, yeah, same as when I went there the first time, January is high season. So there's people from all around the world, which I think is great. That's cool. It's such a nice learning environment. Initially, when I did the level one, which is a one week, 30 hour course, I was very overwhelmed. I must say, Me too, everything is new. The way of teaching is not like a western world kind of teaching. So I had to get. Used to that I had to, you know, I was new to massage. I was new to all the terms so. And then there is, I don't know, maybe 60 something movements that you are supposed to learn in one week. My mind was just blown completely. Yes, yes, how on that first trip? How many of Jung calls that the teacher of the school is Chang, called set a corn. How many of the levels did you go through before you decided that's enough? I'm going to go practice? Well, I mean, I had a limited amount of time on that trip, I'd taken leave from from work. I was working full time at a retreat center in Portugal at that time, and so I did level one, two and three, and level four is now split up in two parts. So there's a level four, which is the therapeutic course upper body week, and there's a lower body week. So I did one of them, and then it was time for me to go back. Got it. Got it. And does he have a teacher training segment level that then gives you a certificate to teach Thai massage, exactly, yes. So which actually the same year I came back December, November that year, I went back for more because I was so excited about it. Yes, I really fell in love with the practice, and I just wanted to learn more, and so I got booked in again for November or December that year to complete the teacher training. So it's called the certified advanced teacher and practitioner course, and that includes like the four levels. And then there's teacher training, where you learn to teach level one and level two. And it has some very interesting extras. For example, visiting a Thai school and teaching it's not a Thai school. I think it's more like an orphanage or school for kids with with limited opportunities. And so we went there to teach them Thai massage for a weekend. We saw a local clinic, because this is one of the very interesting thing, things, I think, is that Thai massage, maybe for most people, massage sounds like something very luxurious, and I'm going to go and have a treatment. But in Thai culture, it's really integrated. It's part of treatment in hospitals, and it's part of what happens in every local community. And so people come to this clinic to get treatment from the local healers, and they had us over there for a morning to see also what alternative treatments they do. So not just Thai massage, but they also do toxin, which is the little hammer and chisel, as I'm sure you know, that's used to work on the energy lines. Then they do this fire food massage. So it's yum Kong in Thai, you heat a metal, I don't know, a metal kind of tool, over charcoal, and then you dip your food in what's a mix of sesame oil, and ply oil like a type of ginger, and that sparks a big flame, which heats up the oil, heats up your foot, and you massage the client with your foot or with your hand with that hot oil. Oh, nice. They do. Gua, SHA, so, yeah, all sorts of techniques. Oh my gosh, they weren't doing that for us when I was there. Oh, really, yes. I mean, they're always advancing, also too good. So, I mean, there's this very traditional approach, then they're also looking at the more western approach, I guess. So we went to the Chiang Mai hospital, and we went to the lab and saw bodies there to really see the all the different tissues. Lots of bodies are donated to science, actually in Thailand, do you mean, like in the cadaver, under a cadaver? Wow, amazing. There. You actually were able to go to the Chiang Mai hospital and watch them do cadavers as a part of the massage group to study the anatomy. Wow, they definitely are taking it to the next level. It is. That's interesting because I remember when I first went, there was very little to no. Special Education on muscle names, origins and insertions. And it was more of that kind of traditional like working the energy lines, the send lines, and working the stretching. And I remember at one point someone said Cheng ka had gone to San Diego to work a little bit at a massage school, and that's where he kind of went, ah, Western style massage and anatomy education. Interesting. Maybe I should start doing that too and but it's really cool to hear that it's evolved into that higher level study of seeing a actual human body in muscle tissue and learning it. So it sounds like they're embracing that. That was very impressive. Yes, they also do a separate weekend with a professor who comes to give an introduction on anatomy. I mean, it's such a broad subject, you could study it for years and years and still not know everything. So it's hard to edit into a 12 week course where there's lots of other things to learn. Yeah, yeah, that's classic Rhiannon. Because I remember I went with a little bit of an overly ambitious sort of attitude, and thought, I'm going to go in and do level 12345, at the time it was like one and two. The way, I think one and two still is three was send line course, thank you. Four was some type of herbology tie, you know, like, I want to say through some aspect to that. And then it was the teacher training. Was level five. And I thought, I'm just gonna go all the way through level five. And I got up to level three, and I was like, Oh my gosh, my mind was blown. I was like, there's no there's no way I'm gonna go back and teach Thai massage. I haven't even started to learn, like, practice this yet. So I came back here, and I got so excited, and I started doing time. Nobody knew what time massage was. Though, when I came back, that was probably one of the bigger challenges, wild. That was one of the bigger challenges is that nobody, there was no understanding of what that is so like, which was a blessing and a curse, because there was no competition. Nobody else in the area was doing it, but then at the same time, nobody knew what it was. So I actually have an interesting story here, because then all my friends, when I went to massage school in Miami, they said, Todd, whatever you do, never advertise your massage services in the newspaper. And this is going back to 2001 which there was, I don't do we, I don't even remember where the internet was at at that point, but it wasn't really happening. I think it was like that old school, like beeps and blurps and like, maybe something to pull up. But so, um, I thought, You know what? I don't really care what those people are saying. I'm gonna put an ad in the paper. Well, most of the ads in the classifieds, in the newspaper here, then we're all prostitution, like, you know, disguised as, like, hot oil massage with, you know, whatever type of person or whatever. So I put it on the paper, Thai massage. This is my phone number, and the newspaper must have hit the ground at like, maybe four or 5am and my phone started blowing up. And I'm like, No way I'm gonna be so busy. This is amazing. And I answer the first call, and this guy goes, Yo, how many girls you got working for you? And I'm like, Oh man, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but it's just me, like, and I think everyone thought it was some sort of like, sex trade thing. And I had to literally turn my phone I had to turn my phone off, just, like, really unplugged, yeah. It was really bad, actually. And I went, Okay, well, I should have heeded the advice that was given to me to never advertise under that medium again. And then I realized I was in a little bit of an uphill battle at this point, like, how do I get people to know about it? So, um, it's, uh, I just wanted to share that story, because I think we've come a long way. I think a lot of people know what Thai massage is now it's gaining in popularity, and you kind of moving your head side aside, like, No, I disagree with you. Tell me still find that a lot of people actually don't know, or don't really know, or they've had a Thai massage in Thailand, and their memories that it was very painful. There is a bit of that, like, I get that if you just walk into any massage parlor in Thailand on the street, you might get, like, bum, bum bum, which means a lot of cracking, a lot of very hard thumb presses and knees and elbows, maybe not by the most skilled massage therapist. Yeah. And also, I find people are just amazed, like, Oh, is that what you do? I didn't expect it to be like this. That's cool. Do you find that Cheon call and his teaching at ITM is a little more because he's worked with so many West. Learners that they train us to be a little more attentive to listening to people's response versus the like getting annihilated while getting massaged and screaming and people laughing like haha, you know? Yeah, I mean, I mean, definitely that's what everyone in ITM is teaching. I think that's what most of the Masters would teach. There's a difference between styles. Because, for example, what post style, the southern style is much more pressure. They focus on on pressure points and on trigger points. The northern style, the style that's taught in ITM, focuses much more on stretching. So there's different ways to practice Thai massage, and yes, one of the things that John co always mentions is to have a connection with your clients to see the reaction. So that's very important. He also is a big advocate for making sure that everyone knows that Thai massage is UNESCO, intangible world heritage, so making sure that we really treat it as something, yeah, sacred, almost. Can you, can you explain for myself and the listeners what that actually means in relation to Thai massage is UNESCO world heritage? Can you talk a little more about like, what, what that means? Yes, of course. So Thai traditional medicine is an ancient study. It's something that has been practiced for hundreds, if not 1000s of years. The knowledge comes from a combination of Chinese traditional medicine. So you can see influences from, for example, meridians, and also the other big brother country that's next to Thailand, India, Ayurveda. So actually those two combined with indigenous Thai knowledge. There's lots of herbal therapies, different types of treatments. So like I mentioned before, for example, the toxin and this whole style has as the only massage style in the world, I think that is UNESCO world heritage. That's cool. I had that long time ago, but I totally forgot about that. That's cool. Yes, so amazing, yeah. And one of the key things in that is that it's performed fully clothed, yes, just linking back to your Yes, yes. Paper Edwards, yeah, getting people to understand there is traditional Thai massage, and then there's a whole other world that exists all around the world, not just in Bangkok and in Thailand, that is not, that's not Thai massage. That's not, I mean, it's, it's whatever that is, it's not the same thing. Yes, exactly, yes, amazing. Well, what? And then, so your first training was in 2003 right now we're in 2025 so you had about a two year gap in between your first study and going back. Or, wait, maybe you said no, no, beginning of 23 then I went back at the end of 23 and stayed into the end of 24 I understand. And now I went again at the end of 24 and stayed into the beginning of 25 and so it's kind of a continuous learning. I think you know ITM school has been around for I think it's 33 years this year, and what I really learned from them is consistency and simplicity, like those are my two words for this year that I really want to implement in my life, in my teaching, but they are definitely inspired by ITM school, and by seeing what happens if you just continuously do the same thing with a lot of love and attention, that it can turn into something really special. That's amazing. Rihanna, oh my gosh, I know I felt that from John call too, like he my first time massage was at WaPo, and it was, had you had? Have you had massage at WaPo? Since, yes, isn't that incredible, or what it is? What an experience, right? Like walking into that room and having, I don't know what would be. Your guess of number of time that's on the floor? I always say, like, 60 or 70, I don't know. And my way, in my distorted perception, how? How many would you guess? Really? Well, I don't know. I don't think it was that many. But maybe, when were you last there? Like, maybe it's different. That was in 2001 there I went into, yeah, there was one big room. And I just remember again, like, right? Like, you know how your mind, kind of, your memory can, can get weird after years. I remember, like, a good 50 or so mats with 50 therapists, and we waited in line out the front, and they'd say, next, and you walked in. I remember walking in, going, what is this? I've never even seen anything like this. And everybody was at a different point within the routine. And you just lay down, and somebody started working. And as I was being worked on, I could look to my left and look to my right, and all I saw was like legs up in the air, and arms over here, and people being pulled there, and and I just, I was blown away. And so then I thought, well, maybe I should study it at WaPo. And someone said, well, they don't speak English, and you can learn it here, but, you know, they're only going to be speaking Thai. And someone said, but there is a school in Chiang Mai where they they teach in English, and it's air conditioned. And like, somebody was like, saying, like, that was the big selling point, yeah. And I thought, well, that sounds good. Both of those sound great, but, and, but the English part for me at that time was like, I probably would be a little easier if I could have somebody teach me with English. And so that was how I found Chang call. But um, that, um, I love hearing you say that you're able to witness the consistency and simplicity, and how, without letting all the drama that can pull you this way and that, if you just put your head down and stay focused. And I also love that you said, with a lot of love, that's a really Yeah. Doesn't that seem like a big component of this? Definitely it is. Yes, absolutely, that's, that's the key, I think, loving what you do. But I mean, yeah, it's so easy to feel like, oh, I need to learn new techniques, or I need to do something else, or I need to somehow entertain my receiver, entertain my students. And I don't know, I feel like going back to basics is really, I agree important. I agree I still do. I still do, like two to three to four time massages a day for like six days a week now for like, the past, for the past 23, or four years now, I love it, Rihanna, it's my all time. Yeah, I still, I still love it. It's hard physically, like I've had to, you know, my body's not a 20 year old body anymore. So it's, it's physically, but I feel like it's actually, what's really amazing about Thai massage is because I am moving and shifting my position all the time versus like when I'm working on the table all day, I feel way more taxed than when I do Thai massage, because I can use my Oh, really, my feet. Yeah, yes, yes. How about you? What do you find? Yeah, once you start to learn how to use different body parts and how to really use your body mechanic, I think you can make it lighter for yourself, yeah. But when you have some person come in who's three times your size and weight, yes, do you have a little thought in the back of your mind of like, Oh boy, here I go. Um, it's yes, obviously, especially in the beginning, when you're like, oh my goodness, yeah. Now what you know when I was just starting out, you have this routine in your mind, like, okay, yes, it's what I need to follow. This is my structure. And then you see someone coming in, and in your mind, you go, cancel, cancel, cancel, because you can't do this one and you can't do that one, and, wow, what's left? But no, now it's, it's fine, like there's techniques to, yeah, to work with every type of body. What did you find? I noticed because on your last trip, you were able to assist in the teaching, assist with the people coming to learn. What was that like for you? That was wonderful, because I've seen so I also stayed to assist and teach last year, so I've now done quite a few weeks of assisting the level one and level two students, and that means I also go through the level one and level two lessons many times, which every time there's something new that clicks or that makes more sense, whether it's the teacher explaining something in a different way, or it's the student asking a question or me showing something like there. Is always another point that's apparently now I'm ready to learn about it. Yeah? So, yeah, I love going over it again and again. It's really hard to grasp all of it in one week, I think. Yeah, agreed, yeah. So it's interesting. And besides this training at ITM, I did a private 10 days with a different teacher at a different school this time, because ITM classes are usually big, and at the moment, I've done all their courses. So to see something new. I did a private Yeah, teaching as well, which was very different, like a very different way of working, different way of learning. So although Thai massage is the same, it gave me also new viewpoints on on how to work in terms of general massage, but also more focused on therapeutic Thai massage. I'm curious, what were some of the other takeaways in that experience, like, what? What kind of aha moments did you have going to a different teacher and approach? What were some of the things that that you observed that was different. It was really details. But details are so important. Like, I could tell you, this is the step, and you're going to have to press here, and that's what you need to do. And he really showed me more about like, this is how you use your hands. This is how you position yourself, this. So the one on one training really gives you the opportunity to like, receive the massage from the teacher. Then you give the massage to the teacher, so you get the feedback. Like, somatically, when you receive you understand what it's supposed to feel like, as well as when you do it to someone, and they can really tell you, like, no more like this, more like that. Try it again. So I learned so much about how can I use my my forearm better, or how can I use my elbow better? Like, where exactly is that line? Yeah. And then he just showed different techniques for working with all sorts of ailments, people with back pain, people with migraines, shoulder pain, yeah. He's a this was with a teacher called Dr Suat at Tara massage school. He's self taught. He's been massaging for more than 20 years as well. So that was very cool, too. He also sees something completely new. He's self taught. Well, yes, like all of the things I asked him, like, where did you learn this? And he's, like, I just learned from my patients, from trying, yeah, very cool for me, trying and finding out. Like, for example, he will tell you okay to find out if someone has shortened psoas muscle you need to press here and here and here, and it will give you six or seven different points on the body. And I was like, but how do you know all this? How? Because it seems almost like a circus trick, like it really works. And he's like, yeah, that's just experience that's so cool, Rihanna, you're making me want to go back to Thailand. So bad, right now? Yes, oh yeah. There's so many different things to that, so many things to learn and so many people to learn from. Have you come across gnome two rollers book, The Thai acupressure book that he's from? I had a chance to interview him. It was a long time ago when I first started doing the podcast, and he he's from Israel, and he has a book I wish I had here to show you. I'll send you the the link afterward. It's this big, thick manual that he traveled all over Thailand from north to south, and he compiled all of the acupressure and send line charts that he could find, and then kind of condensed it, or put it all together, and then mapped out all the it's just like so detailed and so much information that when I read his book and saw that, I thought, wow, how cool. Man. Like traveling through Thailand and getting Thai massage at all the different places, north and south, and feeling the differences like, that's one thing I think is so cool that you'd be like, Okay, there's a thing called Thai massage. But then if you get like, 20 massages in the north and 20 massages in the south, you can see everything. Like, what you just said, I think you explained it perfectly with like in the south, with the pressure point work, a little more emphasis on, like, intense trigger point work, where I. In the north with a little extra attention to the stretching, I definitely tend to lean toward the the new wadbeau raren style, the northern style. Yeah, I do like it, yeah. Well, I mean, I think there's something to say for both my my boyfriend has studied el wad po because they have a school in Chiang Mai at the moment, so you can study all the bupo curriculum in Chiang Mai as well. And so he was learning there whilst I was going to the other school, and we both go to ITM school, so there's lots of massage talk in our relationship. And yeah, he loves the what, both style and pressure points, but it's, yeah, I think it's quite hard on the body of the giver as well the thumbs. And they really work. Yes, just thumb press. So, yeah, yeah, wow. You have to be strong and resilient to do three, four massages today, like that. Great. I hear you. I hear you. Can you do a send line for Dummies talk for me to just very basically explain send line theory and or what send line treatment is. Oh, my goodness, yeah, sure. So send lines comparable with nadis or meridians, energy lines of the body. In Thai massage, there is senseep, which are the 10 main energy lines. And all those energy lines start from the energetic center of the body, which is the navel. That's where you were connected to your mother. That's where you were conceived. Let's say that's where all the energy comes from. Now time massage always works with the four elements, and usually when there's an imbalance in any of your elements, it means there's also blockage in the energy line. These 10 energy lines, the main lines all have different indications. So there, for example, if you have joint pain, it could be the line that's called calatari, and that runs from your navel, it runs up over your body and out to all your extremities, and there's different ways of working on every specific line. So depending on what kind of indication your client has, you could choose to work on a specific energy line. And working on the energy line can mean just pressing on the points on that line, but it can also mean stretching the line, doing, yeah, energetic work. Oh, great answer, wow. Great answer. Look how you just pulled that right out. You've been studying, you've been studying, you know, something that I'm very passionate about, and especially the part about the belly, I think the dantian massaging and starting from there is so profound and so important, and not very often done in western massages, also not very appreciated by Western massage recipients, like, oh, I don't really want to be touched there, but yeah, both energetically and anatomically, it makes A lot of sense if you have back pain, for example, there's a good chance that maybe there's a tightness in front of your body as well that needs to be released. So that's something that I try to communicate and share with people, nice, very cool. How in Portugal, do you need to have a license to be a massage therapist? No, you don't. No, in Holland, do you? I'm not sure, because I've never practiced there and but I don't think so. You said you spend time in Greece too. What about Greece? In Greece as well? Yeah, in Greece you don't have to have so, I mean, there, from a legal point of view, if you call it a massage, it's fine. You can do it. If it's a therapy, I don't think that's something you can claim without having the proper certification. Got it? Got it? Yeah. Yeah, and you lead retreats, and so actually, we haven't even talked about your yoga background. What is your yoga background? When did you start practicing yoga? I started practicing yoga first, I think, in 2007 or 2008 but I didn't get very serious about it until maybe 2015 2016 that's when I really got into Ashtanga. And I was practicing almost every morning before going to work. And then I did a teacher training in 2019 in India, in Rishikesh, where there's many teacher trainings, so that's where I got my 200 hour certification. Then, well, we moved into COVID, and I started doing some online classes here and there. And when gyms opened, I found a place to teach in the Netherlands where I did my first classes. And after that, very soon and very unexpectedly, I found a place in Portugal. The idea was to volunteer at this retreat center for six weeks. And it's four years later, I never left. Wow. Where in Portugal? Where in Portugal are you? It's an hour and 15 minutes north east of Lisbon. So kind of one second Portugal? Hello. Can you hear me? Rihanna, yes, uh oh. For some reason I lost you one second. I don't know. Oh, no, I can't hear you. Can you hear me now? Yes, Ah, I'm so sorry. My hand reached over I hit something. I don't even know what I hit. I can hear you, yay. It was only a second. Thank you can be impatient, everybody. I'm sorry, where in Portugal are you located? Your Retreat Center? We are an hour and 15 minutes, let's say, northeast from Lisbon. So in the center of the country, it's a 42 hectare farm that has been completely renovated and has, well, you can see the yoga Shala here behind me. So it's old stone barns, beautifully renovated space for about 30 people to stay. And, yeah, that looks amazing. That's where I teach. It looks so cool. I love the brick, the way all the blankets are organized, and the blocks and the shelves and the wall, like you said, it looks like really cool, authentic looking, Portugal style building. It is, it is. It's really one of my favorite places in the world to be. It's wonderful energy, lovely people. And one of the reasons I wanted to go there initially is they have horses as well. They use their horses for for therapy. Nice and you offer, I saw that you're offering a retreat coming up, yes, and I know Yeah, tell me, yeah. It's a co hosted retreat together with the owner of the Quinta. Her name is Michelle, and she's leading all the meditations I'll be leading yoga. It's something that we do twice a year. So there's a spring edition and there's an autumn edition. This is the third time we're doing it, and we have people coming back for the third time. So I think that's the biggest compliment that we could get for this work. That's amazing, is it mostly people that live in Portugal. Are you having a mixture of people flying in? Yeah, we mostly have people flying in, actually, people from the Netherlands, UK, Belgium, but also from further away from Canada, from the US, so kind of from all over. Oh my gosh. I have a friend from here that moved to Portugal recently, and he absolutely loves it. Where how far away from the coast are you? About an hour. So it's further in. It's about an hour in Gotcha. Yeah, nice, yeah. So the coast is a bit further away from here, but the landscape is beautiful. And actually, this part of Portugal is not very well known. So yeah, if you're looking for something really authentic, oh my gosh. That would be nice to be that'd be so great. Where, where, where you are at the center. Do you have an influx of people that come for Thai massage? How do you market your Thai massage services where you are? So usually what happens is. And for a lot of the weeks, the center is rented by an external facilitator. So say you wanted to organize a yoga retreat, and you'd rent this retreat center and bring in your own clients, so then my service could be offered. Say, is there anyone interested to book a Thai massage? Wonderful. Other than that, I have some local people who, yeah, come whenever they're available. Very cool. How is what you're from Europe? So you probably speak like 10 different languages. You obviously speak English really well, and Dutch really well, because you're from there. So then do you speak Portuguese? Yes, yes, that's one of the good things about being in a rural area. I had to learn Portuguese because I work with other people who don't speak English. Yeah, amazing. And what else have you picked up? Did you try learning Thai while you're in Thailand? Yeah, but that was just one bridge too far. One bridge. No, I can speak some French. I can definitely understand it. I'm trying to learn Greek at the moment, because that's where my partner's from, and that's not easy. I can tell you, Oh my gosh, that's so cool. Good job well done. I did purchase a Thai language learning course, and I think I made it through lesson number two, and I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm way in over my head. What was I thinking? It's the writing, it's the tones. It's difficult, right? It's very difficult. So the tongue and the mouth positions we don't use at all in the in English, and so it's like learning a whole nother style of yoga for your mouth. You know, it's like, yes, different positions brain like, I can't even hear it. I can't even hear the tonal differences. I know they're like, Mama to me, it all sounds the same. That's classic. Rihanna. Well, what? What is um, future, dreams, goals and aspirations. What type of what, what? What do you foresee for your future? What do you in? Do you plan to keep going back to Thailand and studying? Do you have any other dreams other than being present moment? Maybe you're just really happy in the present, and you just aren't even concerned about anything moving forward. But I'm just curious what what are your hopes and dreams? Hopes and dreams? Um, no, definitely have hopes and dreams, although I am very happy in the present moment. I love running retreats. I think that's the thing that I'm most passionate about. So that's something that I would like to grow, something that I would definitely bring to Greece as well. Then teaching Thai massage, sharing that with other people is something that I can definitely see happening more and more in the future. Yeah, that's cool. So it's that I think maybe a bit more of a stable place to stay, a home, a home with a garden that's on my wish list. Oh, man, great, great wish. I'm with you. And if you had to pick three things that you're grateful for, what are the first three things that pop in your mind? Um, one, I'm looking down because my dog is the and as you asked the question, it just looked up. So I I think that means I should say I'm very thankful for my my dog. Good answer, good answer, great answer, yeah, me too. I love my dog. I'm very grateful for all the different teachers that I have in this life. I think it's, yeah, truly an honor to be able to learn to have the time and the freedom to dedicate myself to learning something new. And my god, dog has gone crazy now. What else? Just for a very easy going, flowing year life so far, everything seems to just fall into place at this moment. So amazing. Rihanna, I'm deeply grateful for that. Yeah, I hear you. Those are great answers. I've been trying to get into writing these down every day personally, and I'm finding it so yeah, helpful. Yeah. What about i. Oh, shoot. I had a question. It just popped out of my head. Oh, boy. All right, I have no What's the last thing you wrote down that you're grateful for? I'm curious. This morning. I have a little diary that I do three things every morning. And one of them, what was my one this morning? My one this morning? I mean, I'm, I'm really, I'm really grateful for so my wife and I have been here in our studio for the last 19 years, and we are very close to the beach, and this is where I was born and raised. So I I feel really, I love, I love where I live. I really, really love and I love my job, and I love what I do. And so there's a lot of development going on around us. And I started getting a little nervous because our lease was ending, and I felt like, what am I going to do? And are they going to and so I have received word that we're going to be able to continue on. And so I'm extremely grateful for that, because I just don't really want to move right? I don't want to I don't want to change anything. I'm trying to stay open to change and be you know, I can handle change. I was like, really coaching my mind around whatever happens is going to work out. It's going to be all right. There's always one door close, another opens. Who knows the next chapter could be so incredible that if I have to close one door, maybe the new one is going to be so much better. So don't worry. Don't worry. But my mind was really going toward, I really just want to stay and I keep doing this. So I received that yesterday. So I'm like, All right, cool. I feel really grateful for that. Yeah, relieved, yes. Relieved, yeah, yeah. And so, Rihanna, are you so what happens now in the rest of the day? No, it's a little bit later over there. Do you have a class coming do? What do you have an easy chill rest of the day do? What do you get to do next? Yeah, very easy, chill. Rest of the day, cooked dinner and nothing much planned and for not even for this weekend, I don't have much planned. I'm just preparing for the upcoming retreat. Amazing. Well, Rihanna, I'm so grateful for you to join me today. I love your enthusiasm for your in your passion for Thai massage, and I'm really, I really enjoyed hearing your experience practicing at ITM and and hearing too that you you branched out and studied elsewhere, and all those insights that you got from like exploring and pushing the boundaries here with this, I love meeting somebody else that is super passionate about this type of work, and I'm super stoked for you that you're you're pulling it off, you're doing it. Thank you. Thank you. I think when you when you really love something, yeah, it kind of just happens automatically. I agree, yeah. Well, thank you, Rihanna. I'm so grateful. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for for reaching out and for having me on and yeah, it was wonderful. Thank you very much. Thank you. Have a great day. You too. Native yoga. Todd cast is produced by myself. 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