Darnell "Moe" Washington ~ Finding Peace and Purpose Through Yoga in Prison

Darnell "Moe" Washington is a passionate advocate for yoga and meditation as transformative tools for personal development and community healing. Once deeply involved in gang activities in South Central Los Angeles, Moe turned his life around during a 26-year prison sentence, discovering yoga and meditation's power to foster restorative justice and personal healing. He is now the founder of the African American Community Healing organization, through which he facilitates yoga and meditation sessions to help others transcend their past and develop healthier lives.

Visit Moe on his website: https://www.africanamericanch.org/

Key Takeaways:

• Yoga and meditation have been critical in Moe Washington's journey, offering tools for personal and community healing.
• Restorative justice provides a path toward understanding and healing by bringing together victims, offenders, and community members.
• Moe’s African American Community Healing organization offers free access to yoga and meditation to foster positive social change.
• Belief and support from individuals and the community are vital in transforming past life experiences into positive futures.

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Chapters

• 0:04 From Gang Life to Yoga: A Journey of Transformation
• 8:50 The Cycle of Violence and Community in Gang Life
• 11:33 Restorative Justice and Transformation in the Prison System
• 20:33 Family Support and Inmate Brotherhood in Prison Life
• 22:50 Yoga's Impact on Masculinity and Conflict Resolution in Prison
• 26:02 Healing and Freedom Through Meditation and Nature
• 31:29 Finding Faith and Purpose Through Meditation and Accountability
• 37:33 Community Transformation Through Yoga and Meditation
• 47:01 Adjusting to Life After Prison in a Technological World
• 50:46 Empowering Communities Through Restorative Justice and Collaboration

Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Todd, welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast my name is Todd McLaughlin, and today I bring to you Darnell "Moe" Washington. Moe has a story that's going to change your mind. It's going to open your mind, and I think it's going to replace any doubt that you have with love and compassion. His story is inspirational, powerful, and it is a example that all of us have the ability to change, to rehabilitate and to serve our community in a way that is healthy and productive. Visit him on his website, africanamericanch.org which stands for African American Community Healing. And also take a look at prisonyoga.org as the topic of this conversation is punitive justice versus restorative justice, and the role yoga and meditation can play in the process of restorative justice, I'm honored that Moe trusts me with to hear his story and to share his story. Please go to his website and make a donation. It'll help his community in Los Angeles have access to yoga and his teaching, and I just think that when you hear his story, you're going to be as inspired as I am. And so with that being said, also, if you know somebody who is looking for a guest speaker. Moe does do guest speaking and motivational speaking. So if you can help him spread his message, if you can share this podcast with as many people that you know, care about and love, ultimately, with the intention of helping Moe and to help build this program that he is putting together, and again, just so happy to be here. And let's get started. Today. I have the opportunity to bring to Darnell"Moe" Washington, and I'm really honored to have this opportunity. Moe, I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite a while. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you very much for having me. You know, I learned about your story, which I find extremely inspirational, from a friend, Robert Sturman, and he introduced us. And thank you so much, Robert for making the introduction. And I've been thinking a lot last few days before now, like, how, where can I start? And so I think I'd like to start Moe with, why? What do you feel like yoga and meditation has done for you in your life? How has it helped you? Well, in different forms. I know yoga, from the beginning, made me deal with my masculinity, you know, because of my perception of yoga and people who did yoga. So that was one thing. Through my meditation is helped me slow down and sit. And I find that excuse me, I finally not going to resolve things much better after sitting and meditating. So that's been, like, very, very helpful to me. Yes, amazing, MO. And you know, on that note, can you fill me in on some of details about your story, and if we start back around about your when you're in high school, can you talk a little bit about the events that led to you spending time in prison? Well, I was in high school. I graduated from high school, was in my first year of college. And came home and my 15 year old cousin was shot point blank in the forehead with a shotgun. I couldn't really stay focused anymore in my classroom, you know, just seeing that image implanted in my head and through the anger and the grief, I chose to drop out of college and started gang banging, and it's the same time crack cocaine was coming in our community in the early 80s, like 8384 and it just snowballed into me gang banging, and that led me to ended up shooting and killing one of my homeboys who I'll set up when our other homeboys to get killed, and I made the decision to shoot him as well. Wow. And this is all in in Los Angeles, correct? Yeah. This is all in South Central Los Angeles. Oh, man. And, and so were you arrested at the scene, or was it a time from the actual event to when you were incarcerated? No, I was arrested about a year later. I was arrested, then let go, but then arrested re arrested again about a year later, wow. And what was your sentence? 35 to life. Yeah. Where did you start your sentence? At Corcoran State Prison. And can you tell me a little bit about what that was like when you first entered in and where you're at mentally, and the realization of of what sitting in a cell was like for you. Well, this wasn't my first time in prison. I had been to prison prior in 1988 as well, but this time coming, the whole system was different. And just looking at everything that was going on in the yard, you know, and at the time, he's still being a gang member, I was like, I'm just done with this. And, you know, a thought came to my head is that, how can I be in prison influencing another man's son to live a Negative lifestyle in prison, but getting on the phone and wanting the best for my sons? So at that point, I made the decision that I'm just going to turn my life around and use my leadership in a positive way. Wow, at what point were you introduced to yoga and meditation while you're incarcerated? I came to prison in 1998 I was introduced into it and 2012 I was transferred to San Quentin State Prison, and they was having a health fair, and they had all these different, you know, things about health, and someone saying, Hey, Mom, won't you come try yoga? Because they knew I was, I would try anything. And I went, and it was like, Alright. I'm like, Okay, it's alright. And then one of my friends, or one of my group, red fry, he decided to invite me to where I can practice on a regular basis in class, and it took off from there. What type of realizations did you start to have as you went into the world of meditation and looking within, well, well, through meditation, I realized I had a lot of different issues that wasn't wasn't addressed, and I needed to address them. So, you know, just being able to just sit sometimes and not even speak, you know, just sit and just sit with what's going on, and then I can come back and make the right decisions. And that helped me a lot. And I joined the Buddhist group as well. And so I was going every Sunday to the Buddhist group. I love to practice, you know, you know the Four Noble Truth, that's basically what I stay focused on. And in that it has helped me, like my life, grow immensely in a much more common, common way, common way, I would say, understanding that, you know, we're all interconnected, you know, and understanding that, and understanding that people have different life experiences, so their view of life and my view of life is going to be different, and I can sit with that and understand that and not be, you know, judgmental of them because of the way they up their upbringing was. But I, my main thing is, like what I learned from this, that we all have a commonality, so go to those commonalities first, and then maybe we can work our way out to deal with other issues that keeps us far apart. You have a website that is African American ch.org which is for African American community healing, and you're able to facilitate yoga and meditation now that you are out of prison. Can you talk a little bit about what. Like for you to facilitate this within your community. Well, you know, nonprofit I rolled out in everything, everything I did, I did while I was in prison and, you know, believing it was going to happen when I came home, me and James always talked about him coming to my community and running a class, and Robert Sterman, who introduced me to you, was one of the cameramans who came into San Quentin, and we said, we will hook up when we get out. Because I was from LA, he was from Santa Monica. And so I came home, he was taking, come take pictures of the people in the community. And I'm telling my friends about it, and community members about it. And they were, like, really interested in in it. So invited James down, and we did a workshop, and we did a yoga workshop, and then community members was, like, really excited about it, and a lot of them was asking me, you know, how much it would cost? And I was telling them, it's not going to cost you anything. You know, I'm doing this through my nonprofit imma, start running this program in our park, in the gym, and then you have free access to it. If you would like to donate to the program. That's cool. But I want you to be able to have full access to this practice, which I've been practicing, without you having worried about, you know, taking money from your food or anything like that. Oh man, that's amazing mode that you've been able to make this sort of turnaround. You know, one thing I would love to ask more questions about is, like punitive justice versus restorative justice, and how yoga meditation plays into this. But before we even go a little deeper in there. I'm curious, because I have never been around gang related activity. Can you talk a little bit about what it was like being in that world? Well, it's like, you know, people from the outside looking in think that it's all violence, but it's really like family, you know, like my uncle is one of the ones who started our game way back in 1963 and we they used to go to Griffith Park, and I would be a kid and see all these people gathering together, you know, there's a lot of things going on in the 60s, and then, like, even when I started gang banging, you know, we had a lot of picnics. We had a lot of parties, you know, barbecue, we did things to come together, but then there was violence. When someone got hurt, there was retaliation. And through that retaliation, it just, it's like a repeated cycle, you know, like, say, like my cousin being killed, and then someone else getting killed, and then going to seek revenge. It was like a repeated cycle that was going on. And it just reverted all the way back to when my cousin got killed, seeing someone else, you know, and just all of these people, young men, that was getting killed, where no one was over 21 years old. So just imagining our community having a beautiful community, and then next, you know, boom, people are getting shot, and there's drugs, you know, you didn't have time to adjust to this thing, so you just went along with it. Yeah, that makes sense. What? What gang were you in? Mo, I was in the Bloods. Got it. Our neighborhood is called Van s, so we was called Van s gangster, and we were Bloods. How? What is the origins of the Crips and the Bloods in relation to how did there become such a intense rivalry between these two gangs? Well, I think through like time, I think that, like the 70s and stuff, they might fought more, but in the 80s, when they brought crack cocaine into our communities, we started having more money, being that you would ever have more money, you were able to buy more guns. And then guys we used to grow up with that used to come to our park that stayed across the state, across the tracks, you know, once my cousin got killed, it was like, you know, they not coming back over here, no more. And it just snowballed into one thing, one person getting killed, another person getting killed. And it just became a cycle of violence. Understood. Mo, I cannot imagine what it is like to be in prison like I can't, I can't imagine it. Can you fill me in a little bit about what, what is that like, I mean, I I've always heard like San Quentin being one of the hardest prisons in the country in terms of dangerous and difficult. But then upon our pre podcast conversation, you kind of educated me that, if that's a lot is a lot has changed. Can you, can you tell me what it's like being in prison? I mean, well, I just can't even fathom it. Well, I think, you know, starting off just, you know, just being locked up and being told what to do, how to do it, and then you have violence going on, where people on someone for drug debts, and somebody's getting stabbed or turns into a big riot. It, and those things like that. And then, you know, at the same time, you practice restorative justice, and people didn't know it, and I didn't know it at the time, you know, because it could be a riot. And then people come together, negotiate, resolve the situation. We go back to, you know, a normal program with one another. But you know, it's a lot of different things. You know, different ethnic groups has their own politics, you know, per se, and that creates a lot of problems as well. But you can also, you know, negotiate a lot and communicate with people a lot as well. And so, like the whole prison system has changed, it's way less violence. Even at all prisons you still have, like stabbings, you know, but a lot of it's like in house, basically gang members stabbing their own gang members there, it's not as many as riots and things like that anymore. Wow, when you decided to use your prison sentence as a rehabilitation opportunity. Was getting out of the gang something that you had to think really long and hard about. And is that extremely difficult, or what was the process for you to like to make that step? Well, you know, different ethnic groups have different gang policies. Like African Americans, we can just say, Man, I'm cool. You know, I'm not with this no more. You know, they can. They can involve religion, different things. We don't pressure nobody into being anything. You know, I had a lot of respect when I came into prison, like my reputation from the streets. And even though, like, I wouldn't, I walk, I couldn't say I completely walked away. I just prayed on it like, you know, let me use my leadership in a positive way. So I still hung around my homeboys. You know, we worked out together, we did positive we did things together, but I always wanted to be that voice of reason. So if you had someone older influencing the youngster to do something negative, I would pull the youngster to the side and give them another option to do something positive. You know, if someone's trying to do something positive, somebody's talking negative about them, you know, I would talk to them about like, you know, they doing the right thing. You know, look at us in prison right now. So it, you know, some people just didn't like it. But, you know, with my violent past and people knew how I once was, you know, I gained a lot of respect through that and just influencing these guys in a positive way. Amazing. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of believing people feeling belief? I had the opportunity to listen to an amazing TED talk that you gave, and I'll include that link in the description so people can check and check that out as well. But I showed both my wife and son, and we were all in tears after listening to it. In terms of inspiration, I'm curious if you'd be willing to talk a little bit about how important being believed in or also sharing belief in someone is in this sort of recovery, recovery from prison, yeah, or recovery from I suppose you know, integration back into society, and having the feeling that, how are people going to receive me? Yeah, I think, like, for me, like a lot of people say, Mo, you did a 26 year prison sentence, and I, and I always like, hey, no, I was on a 26 year retreat. You know, in dealing with healing, accountability, responsibility, you know, mindfulness, you know, just getting everything in line. So coming back home and the person I was when I came home is like society accepted me. My friend accepted me. People listen to my story, and they accept me. So it wasn't a problem because I was coming home and giving people a version of transformation. You know, I was a good kid, never missed school, accomplished all of these things while I was in high school, and then a tragedy happened, and from that trauma and shame and guilt not being there for my cousin when that happened, it's made me go violence. I never, you know, we didn't have counseling or any of those things that we have nowadays for children when they go through things. And so after going to prison and doing that retreat for those 26 years, and you know, being able to deal with all of my issues, I was able to transform my life back again to who I truly am and to live that life to the fullest. So people, I give people that example of my life to where, you know, we should not judge people because we don't know their life experiences, and just let them know, like you have bad life experiences as well. But there's a healing path that we can take, and we can do it together, or you can do it on your own, but you know, no one has. Stay in that stagnant place. Yeah, yeah, amazing. I with when I looked and studied the prison yoga.org website, I noticed that they listed like punitive justice into like four categories of like retribution, deference, incapacitation and retributive justice, can you and I guess retribution, punishment is imposed as a form of vengeance for the wrongdoing in relation to restorative justice. How does restorative justice folk redirect this idea of the method of rehabilitation just through being kind of locked up, how does the restorative justice kind of approach that differently? Well, I was while in San Quentin, I was going to have facilitators restorative justice and what it does, which is really so important, it brings, like the victim or slash survivor, the offender and the community member all together. And that's one of the things that attracted me to restore, to just bring the community members. And because a lot of times, the community members don't have a voice, you know, the person gets convicted, just sits off the prison. The victim doesn't really get a lot of questions answered. To know that maybe the crime that was committed against him wasn't personal, it could be from a person's upbringing, not that it justifies it, but to hear someone's story, which led him to where they was able to commit a crime, it gives people a better view of things, and then community members being able to have a voice, you know, and about what's going on. And you know, it doesn't mean that you don't go to jail. You don't but the thing is that restorative justice tries to bring healing, and I think it tries to bring more of an understanding of why this happened, and how can we deal with this situation, because I believe that, yes, we have a lot of people in prison, but our whole society has a responsibility to that. It's a lot of things that lead people to prison, and people think it's only an individual act, but it's us as a society, like, for say, for instance, in my community after I graduated, you know, our community was flooded crack cocaine. There was defunding, the education, social programs, all of these things which left people with nothing to do. So what happens? You bring drugs in the community? What is going to happen? They knew what was going to happen. And this is why I ended up the way it has, you know, and you know, and with that comes violence and gangs, because people are uneducated, people are not getting healing, and it just snowballs. But restorative justice tries to bring that back and get people's story out. You know, when people talk to me and heard about me going to school, and it's not They couldn't believe it, because a lot of time people have images of especially black men that were just born out of our mother's womb into games. No, we go through trauma like everyone else, and we end up making bad choices, and one of those choices was joining the game. Well, said, No, do. How did your family react to your imprisonment? Were they supportive? Did you have some members of your immediate family, your blood family, that would come and visit you? Did you have anybody turn their back on you? What was the role that your family played in the process of while you were in prison? Well, my family was very supportive of me. My mother always came to visit me. They had a program called Get on the bus, and it was sponsored through the Catholic Church. And get on the bus program, they would raise money, and then Father's Day, they would bring you would just sign up and give them your family members contact, and they would bring your kids on a nice, like, luxury bus to come visit you, and they pay for all the food, pay for all the pictures and all of those things. So my mother would come up every year with that, because she didn't have to pay or anything like that. Yeah. But she stayed, you know, visiting me. And I communicated with my family members, you know, on weekly basis, talking them on the phone how I've been changing, and, you know, things that they need to do with you know how they need to change, and what's helped me get my life together while I'm in here. So send them a lot of positive Mike, my crown was and certificates, so they can see what I'm actually doing in prison. Nice. Yeah, how important was that, in relation to the other inmates that you were with that did not have any familial contact, well, just communicating with them, not to give up, you know, but to stay focused on yourself. Yeah, and we are family inside here, so we're very supportive of each other, you know, people having family members. Passing away, and guys coming together and giving them condolence cards and supportive of them. So we were like a family inside as well. So if you didn't have family on the outside communicating, we was a you know, we took care of each other inside as well. Wow. I i noticed that even in my local community here, that men will look at yoga and say, that's, that's only for women, or I don't think yoga just probably isn't for me, because, you know, I'm I'm tough, I'm strong, and these sort of ideas, and I would imagine that that would be so much more intense in prison, like I would imagine, just like the masculinity component of like, trying to like show how tough somebody is, that to bring yoga into that environment would seem even doubly challenging. Can you talk a little bit about what your first thought was upon seeing it and what was a turnaround moment for you in relation to accepting that potentially you could get benefit from practice? Well, you know, just first walking into, like, tell people, I always thought about yoga, and I thought about Richard Simmons, the first guy that came to your mind, yeah. I mean, just to be honest, yeah. So that's getting into yoga is like, you know, I was like, you know, hesitant, and I'm like, Okay, I'm this guy. I work out real hard and this and that. And, you know, James is a great James Fox of prison yoga. He's a great instructor and talks you through and let you know this is not about, you know, muscles and everything. It's about heart, body and mind and being in the line with each other. And as he started talking more about that, I started to realize that my heart, body and mind was not in the line. So that's why I was going through so many, like, ups and downs and coming in there with that masculinity. And I like to tell the story about we were in there doing yoga one day, and James had us in plank position, and I'm looking at James like, you know, this skinny, older eye guy, and I'm out here working out. He's not going to outdo me, and I'm in this plank position, and he's holding us, and he's just like, calmly talking, and I'm over there fighting it because I really can't hold it, and then I'm sweating, and next thing I collapsed. And after collapsing, you know, that day, I went back to my cell, and I sat and meditated, and a lot of things came up. I'm like, you know, this is masculinity. I'm prejudging this person because he's older and this and that. And I didn't just go back in the downward dog like he would ask us do if he got tired. And then I came to the conclusion, this is how I was in my regular life. This is how I was when I was gang banging. I was keep myself in a position because I didn't want to back down, till I ended up just taking off fighting or doing something, you know, act of violence. And then it made me think, like, okay, just think about it. Just backed up out of it, just like with downward dog and, you know, and catch my breath and get everything in the line, then I can come back into position. And it's the same way when it comes to conflict, you know, I didn't felt myself in a conflict, but I'm so aroused that I can't make a right decision. So I would just back up out of it, and I would come back later when I had a clear head, you know, no thoughts, you know, not like they've been not say this, I said that. Just go back into it with a clear head, and then have a conversation with someone, and it worked out better. And I realized that came up from that, from that yoga situation that I'd had, and they made me realize, okay, this stuff was really working once I connected two together and that, you know, that was like, you know, aha moment for me. Yeah, that is a big one. That's amazing. Mo, that's so cool. You know, in relation to restorative justice, there's emphasis placed on healing, accountability, reintegration, collaboration, on the note of healing. Do you feel like you have achieved healing? Yes, I believe that I would achieve healing, but it's an ongoing process. You know, being in gangs and just living in South Central or so much violence. You know, I understand like trauma, and I understand PTS, because a lot of things still come up for me, but I'm able to sit with those things. And I used to drink a lot, but now I've chose not to drink. So I've been sober for the last 27 years. So in being sober, it makes me realize how many things I was suppressing through alcohol, because those. Things still come up now, and I just go sit with them, and just sit and meditate and let it process, do what's going on in my mind and in my heart, and just like, let it go through and then I can just talk to someone about it, because it never it's not like it's not never healing. It's not an ending cycle. It's an ongoing cycle, so that that helps a lot. And just being in prison for 26 years, you know, understanding the trauma I went through there, the mentality that's ingrained in your head, you know, like it could be triggering for me, for someone to continue to like, to ask me questions, you know, quitting to question me, it's like, that's a trigger for me, because being in prison, they're always like, where are you going do this, do that, being told what to do. So coming home and someone doing that, it's like, I feel like, like triggering, because it's like, I'm free now, so why are you questioning me? But I realized that came from me being in prison, and it's just those little things that be ingrained in you, like coming home and saying, I gotta go to a dental ducket. That's something we say in prison out here, I go to a dental appointment, you know. So those things are like, ingrained in your head, yeah, you don't realize it till you say it like, I'm going to nothing, like I'm going to the when I was in the reentry room, I said, I'm going to the day room. The day room is in prison at home. I'm going to the living room. Yeah, so learning these things and acknowledging what you really been through. And because I could have came home and been drinking and I could have been this, like, suppressing all of those things, oh, man, that's incredible. Mo, when you do, you have moments at home now where you have to force yourself to get out and get out just for a walk and fresh air and or are you just feeling so enamored with the freedom of being able to do whatever you want in the moment. How does that play out when you get out of prison? Well, for me, I like my safe space was the beach Santa Monica Beach. Hours to go there as a kid, and so that's where I go. I like to go to beach and just sit out there. You know, my thing was, like, I can look at the ocean and look how far it goes back and wondering where it ends at, you know, and that's life possibility. It's the same. So just being in that open space at the beach, you know, like, not around a bunch of buildings, and then, like, just space, just to be able to have space to just move in. It's really helpful, because in prison, you always have buildings, you have gates, so you know that you're you know you're enclosed. So going to the beach is so much this freeness, or just going into hiking and just hearing just sounds that you've haven't heard for in years, and understanding that you free being in nature, it's, it's like, really a healing place to go. Wow, oh my gosh. I can't, I can only imagine. I, I had an opportunity mode to sit and do a 10 day silent meditation retreat, and oftentimes I thought, Oh, this could be a little bit like being in prison, but obviously totally different, because at any moment, I could grab my keys and I could go and so I'm curious in the process of, like you said, always having gates around you and walls and always that feeling of being enclosed when you were When you would choose to sit and practice meditation. How did you deal with those really intense moments that of feeling like I'm enclosed? I don't know. I'm just so curious. Like, I mean, I'm just what it was like for you in that in your head space to kind of work through all that. Well, I think a lot of time, like, you can feel enclosed, you know, like they say, you can be in prison, but prison doesn't have to be in you. And through my practice of, you know, Buddhism and meditation, I came to the point where, you know, that's where I came to that point to where I'm saying, Okay, this is a retreat for me. So therefore I'm not in prison, I'm on a retreat, and I'm dealing with all of my issues, and as I'm dealing with all of my issues, other things are coming up, but now I have a practice to deal with those things when they come up, so that was making a difference. So it's easy, like I'm in an intern, you know, like you in an internship, doing something so I can have an issue, but I'm responding to it different, you know, through my prayer and my meditation, I know how to make the right choices, and then on my whole in my thought process, I'm saying, okay, Imma. Need these practices. So when I go home, you know, because I knew I was going to get out of prison, so I. Was already preparing myself to get out of prison by learning these things through my meditation practice and yoga practice and my faith in God. So already knew that, and then coming home and understanding these things, I was able to use it when I came home when certain things came up. Amazing. Yeah, you know, I'm I'm guessing, but instead of guessing, I'm sure you can please fill me in. Did you grow up with faith? Did you grow up in the around the church or in the church? Yes, yes. Like, she like grew our grandmother, and she would take me to church like every Sunday, you know, up until I was like 12, to my mom. Let me make my own decision. So I always grew up around, you know, church and gospel music and things like that. So I always had that inside of me, and then I had to just revert back to that, yeah. And one day, I was coming out of church, and one of my friends was at the Buddhist practice, because it's right next to it, and he introduced me into Buddhism. So when I came in, they was like, Well, you know more Bucha means awakened one. And I say, if you're a Christian, Jesus Christ can be awakened one, and there is no conflict. So I'm like, Okay. And then I was introduced to the Four Noble Truth. And I was like, this makes a lot of sense, you know, like, okay, they're suffering. There's a cause of suffering in the suffering. I'm like, this is like, really, what I really like. So I'm like, okay, and I got more into it, you know, then the three poison, then I look at society, you know, greed, hate and delusion. Like, you can't make this stuff up. I got more into it, and I was able to view things in different ways now and understand people, and understand what people are going through, and then just understanding that we're all connected. That was, like, my biggest thing, we're all connected. We all want happiness. We want all of these things, but we're fighting against it. And you know, no matter what your faith is or whatever you practice, you know one of the biggest the precepts of commandments is to love. So how is we? Everyone's practicing these different faith or spiritual practices, but there's so much anger and hate, so something is wrong here. So interesting to think about, like you said, the Four Noble Truths and and life, the first one being, life is suffering. And like how you related it to that realization of, perhaps while being in prison, and then this, that that, that correlation of maybe all of us in life are on some level or another, some form of prison, if we're being held down by our thoughts or our feelings or our emotions. And that is so fascinating to hear. It from your perspective of having that realization. Have you ever had a crisis of faith throughout the 26 years that you were in prison? Did you have a moment of anger toward God or higher power or society, or the events that led you to bringing you there? Did you did you have any moments like that? Or do you feel like you always within just had a really strong sense of purpose and faith? Well, I don't think I really got to that point of just being angry like that is one thing I understand once you understand accepting your responsibility and being accountable. My actions led me to prison. No one else's actions. I made, choices that led me to where I was at. So I can't blame that on God. I can't blame it on my practice, Buddhist practice, all these my choices that I've made. And while in prison, certain things happen, people passing away, but understanding that I'll see him again, and just having faith to do the right thing still, I was like, okay, things are going to be alright, you know, because there's so much more you still have to live for. In honoring those who pass by me living my life in a healthy and a manageable way is honoring them. So I had to continue to stay on that right track, because I knew that people, if I've failed and start going crazy in prison, how that would hurt, you know, my family members as well. So staying on that right track, and, you know, I had a young guy to mentor. And he's like, you know, some guys that you know we didn't really get along. And he was like, I'm surprised you haven't did anything to one of them guys. I said doing something one of them guys is not going to resolve anything. They're going to be who they're going to be. You know, my thing is to stay focused on what I'm doing. And I remember when I came home and. We me and him was having a conversation, and he was like, you remember what I told you? Like, what are you talking about more? I said, Remember not said I wouldn't do nothing to one of those guys. You got to stay focused and do the right thing. And he said, Yeah. I said, look where I'm at now. He said, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So acting out in violence does not resolve situations, you can practice, restore the justice, have a conversation with someone. And even if you guys still don't have agreement with each other, it doesn't have to result into violence. Like, okay, this is what this person is in his life, and this is where I'm in my life. We can agree to disagree and we can just move forward. Nice. That's amazing, though, in in relation because you were kind of talking about accountability there, in relation to reintegration, can you speak a little bit on what it's like teaching yoga and meditation in your community and some of the transformation that you've witnessed and the folks that have come in contact with you? Yeah, I think just like, you know, people seeing me sitting meditate at the park, that was one thing. And then just like coming out there with doing yoga, and people like seeing me doing it by myself, you know, in our community, looking like, Okay, who is this guy? They haven't seen me. They don't know me, and they're looking at me. And then next thing you know, Robert Sterman is out there taking pictures of him. We're doing yoga, and people getting more curious, you know, now someone's walking up to me and say, Hey, how can I join this? What it's going to cost me? And then I'm telling it's not going to cost you, nothing. You know, people started being more open to it. And then when we had the workshop, people got so into it to where, like, a couple of people said, since that day, I've started by exercising. And then now people ask me, Well, when we do it every Saturday, are we going to do this? And I'm like, Well, hold on a second. That was just an introduction, you know, I got to work on, you know, paying for a permit for six months, paying for insurance. You know, then I was working now, know when I can run it. So, like I told him, I said, Hey, I'm trying to do this right, because if I do this wrong, people can be discouraged. So I want to make sure we have a right schedule. I have all paperwork done, working with the park as well. And it's like more and more people are calling me and excited about being involved in it, and especially that, you know, they don't have to worry about paying to do it, because I think a lot of people in our community would love to do yoga, but any place that they go, it's going to cost them, and people cannot afford it to be able to do it. Yeah, I hear you, are you? I know that this is your nonprofit. So I'm curious, have you rejoined into the workforce as a as a way of generating revenue, or are you focused solely right now on the your nonprofit organization? No, it's half and have like, I work for Parsec at the railroads, so I'm working at the railroads and I'm working with my nonprofit at the same time. Nice. So I'm doing both because I can't not take care of myself, and I don't want to have to use the nonprofit money to take care of myself. I want to put it into the things I want to do, into the community. So I'm raising, you know, little money here and there, and, you know, people are donating. So it's slow, but it's like, it's grassroots. You know, this is something that's going to be built with the community. I'm getting a scholarship through prison yoga project so I can get certified me and my cousin, so when I'm not able to do it, she can do it as well. So it's a slow process, but people are really excited about it, and, you know, and just me talking about them, it's going to be a three phase thing. It's going to be yoga and teaching about yoga and breathing, because so often we get angry, the first thing we do is hold our breath. And yoga teaches just how to breathe, to let it out. So I want to go from yoga to meditation, teach them how to meditate, sit what's going on with them and their life, and this and that. And then the third process would be, uh, running healing circles. So that whole now that I'm talking to him about that, and a lot of them say, Yeah, we do, because we can hold a lot of resentments and unforgiveness, and it's killing us from the inside out. So that three prone process, people are really excited about it nice. So just now working to get to that point. Amazing. Have you had any current gang members come to one of your classes? Yes, yes, yes, yes, wow, yeah. A few of my friends of getting involved in it and excited about doing it. I mean, you know, when you see someone change, that used to be pretty well that was really wild, and you see the calmness and how they deal with them. Now you want that, yeah, and like, I tell people, you know, everything starts small, and then it grows. So the more I'm able to offer it and have more timing, I'm quite sure more will come in, because I've been having a lot of friends pass away due to not taking care of their self, health wise. And so this is one of the things I'm pushing. And, you know, being able to get them to come out and get involved in it is a good thing. And then everybody's up to it, it, because it's like, who brings this to our community? Yeah, you know, and be able to offer it, you know, without pay. So lot of people are really, you know, interested into, into, oh, man, you know, Mo, if I like, if I sit for in meditation, pose for about like, say, 25 minutes or so, and I start having pain in my back, in my knees, and I go, this is impossible. And then I meet someone like you who has had long term, you know, practice with all this, I would maybe be like, Wow, how can I complain? You know, here I'm complaining, and I'm learning from you, and you've been through a really challenging and very focused sort of experience with this. How do you navigate? I mean, you are very relatable. I feel like you're really easy to talk to. Do you have moments, though, where people feel like, like, in awe of you, and you try to bring it down more on a humble mode, to encourage people that they can do it too? Yeah, because it's in all of us. You know, calmness is in all of us, but first we have to deal with our issues. And that's the most important thing, is dealing with it. But the most important thing acknowledging that you have these issues, and then you don't want to deal with them, you know? And just like when you were speaking about being in that position for a while, it takes me back to James, and like in the black community as well, African American community, I think a lot of people are discouraged about yoga because they've heard bad stories about bad instructors. So yoga has gotten a bad name an African American community, and that's why I, like with James, he always taught us like a modified position, you know, modify the position to where it feels more comfortable. And it's the same thing with meditation. Everyone is not able to sit Lotus. You have to switch up. So that's like, in life, you know? That's a life skill, like, Hey, I'm in a discriminate I need to change, I need to modify this lifestyle that I'm living to live a better lifestyle. So it goes along with meditation. It goes along with yoga. Great point, amazing. Mo, what, as me, as myself, as a yoga teacher, what could or can I do to be a little better about that? I feel like you answered this question already being adaptable and opening up opportunity for people to understand that they can do something differently to make it appropriate and comfortable, and you had made mention that there is maybe a bad stigma with, like, the super high power, fitness, fashion, yoga industry. What advice would you lend myself and or any other yoga teacher out there that can help to kind of bridge this gap between, like, what you said, where there's a negative connotation around it, I think one, one thing I really learned about a lot of things that you know people want to know you personally, and how yoga has helped you, you know so like as an instructor, as you telling them about different positions and how this position help you in a certain way, you know. So you making it personal. It's not like, I'm just telling you people tired of getting told what to do. Tell me how you went through something and how your practice helped you, you know, created, you know. It's like, you know, I, I love, uh, doing twists, you know, and just understanding, just just taking a bit inhale and then exhale as you twist. How does that apply to you in life? You know what I'm saying? How does like something going on, and you taking a big head in hell and then exhale, and just slowly taking your time and dealing with something or making a move in this day and age where everything is so fast, we're constantly moving fast, and like in yoga, we can talk about those things as an instructor, to how you can just take your time and ease into the position, or ease out, or take that time and just take a breath in, you know, and let out a long exhale. When are we doing that in our daily activities? We're not, we're constantly moving. We're not holding, you know, we're holding our breath, and we're not, you know, being mindful what's going on. And like you say, like we say in yoga, like hard body of mind, the. Average person are all three of those are scattered in different places. Yeah, great point. Yeah. Mo, what was your your last day in prison, when you were next day you're going to be out, what did that feel like? Were you nervous? Were you overjoyed? Did you have every emotion possible? Did you feel calm? What? What was that like on that last day? I think I was, it was like a calmness, but then a bittersweet because you live in a lot of friends that was in in prison with You, and You know, they depended on your friendship and stuff like that, and so that that was one thing. But just like, you know, it was a calmness just coming home into this world. That's like after 26 years, you know, you might have did 26 years in the 70s and got on in the 80s. Nothing much changed. 22 years from the 90s to come out in the 2000 it's a whole nother world, technology, all of these things, everything is moving forward. Fast. It's, it's like, it's totally different. So it was like, a lot of Justin and understanding that coming home and like an old guy told me long time ago, he's like, Mo, use your eyes and ears a lot more than your mouth, and you learn a lot and be more wise. So coming home with that in mind, I knew I was coming home, you know, I'm a father, not to come home and tell people to do this, to this and that, but to be observant of everything that's going on and just watching things that's going on. Yeah, crazy. And I think that's really important, instead of just jumping right into it? No, let me see what's going on first. Oh, man, and kudos for here we are using technology. Was it difficult to make that jump into email, text, social media? Websites are do you feel like you're keeping up and confident and in this, like, reintegration process, I think, like, that was, like, my biggest like, I was really getting frustrated and, like, somewhat like full anxiety, because every time I, like my kids, someone trying to teach someone, it's always a password, there's a username. And it was, like, it was really frustrating. And then, like, my practice kicked in to where, like, I had to just sit like, Okay, well, if you want to be successful, you have to learn these things so you can't continue to get frustrated with it, because this is a big change. You know, nothing's written down. You go to DMV, I had to get on the computer. Everything was like, on a computer. So once I had that conversation and sat with myself, I was like, Okay, so when I had to do something else, and the first thing I had to do using anything, I just took a deep breath, and I went along with it nice. And that's what I had to do to where it became normal. And then I think what, what it also is that, most importantly, the willingness to ask for help and people will help you. And I think that's one of the things as well. Being in prison, you don't really like to ask for help, but now coming home, you have to ask for help to be able to do things, and people are really been gracious enough to help me with all I need to do. Oh, amazing. Wow, that's so cool to hear. I know it's like the fourth part of the restorative justice is collaboration, and on the website, it says involves all stakeholders in the justice process, including survivors, the who caught those who caused harm, and community members. On this level, I'm really grateful to have this opportunity to collaborate with you. How, how can I and or anyone listening, help you? What can I do to help you? Because I think your mission is so inspiring and really positive and powerful, and I want to help. And I'm curious what, what could I and or anyone listening do to assist and help you? Well, of course, you know, if anyone is willing to to donate, you know, go to the website and they can donate. That would that would be a plus. Or even someone has something to offer, like, you know, I want to get to the point to what we're doing meditation. So I'm looking to get cushions, our foods to be able to sit on to, you know, have all of these things there for them to be able to practice prison yoga. Project had donated me yoga mats and some blocks as well. So, like I said, I wanted to be a three phase. So I wanted to teach them how to sit and meditate. So I've looked at like, you know, get questions for them to sit on as well. And you know, I appreciate you, you know, even bringing me on your shoulder to put my story out there, you know. And you know, just from hearing me, I just one way people can help me is to just understand people have different life experience. Is, and we as a human race cannot continue to give up on people you know and believe in retribution is what's going to resolve our differences, because we all know someone who's been affected by crime or has committed crime or using drugs, you know, in all communities. And I look at it like if we realize that we are really connected to one another and start helping one another, then we can resolve some of these issues. So any way that they feel though they can help, you know, donate to my nonprofit, or they have cushions they would like to donate, or even instructors who will be willing to come have a workshop, you know, I would love to invite them, you know, like I tell people, yes, my nonprofit is called African American community healing, but we are a community of the diversity. And I think diversity is what helps people heal as well. You know, being around different people, really understanding them, it's really crucial. So I invite anyone who was willing to want to come and sit and do yoga with us, or like want to come teach us about meditation. You know, I'm willing to bring them, have them come and then that, and that's one way to be supportive of each other, just like, I'm you brought me on your show. So, you know, that's a way of being supportive. Oh, man, I appreciate that. When is your next class? Well, right now, like, we did the workshop, and, like, during the week, I work out at the park, and I'd like run little sessions like, like on the basketball court with a few people, but people waiting on me, I'm looking at maybe the end of January, because I'm ready, trying to raise the funds for the insurance and the permit and get the right time. And so I want to get it done by the end of January, coming into February, have it like once a week in the morning time at that park. And so our park is not open in the morning, so I have to pay for one of the park staff to be there for an hour. So just getting all of those logistics together, and it's coming together now and then we can be up and going. But I would like know anyone who's willing to give their time. Yeah, you want to teach a class or teach, you know, yoga or some meditation. I'm open amazing, though. I can't I can't wait. Well, next time I come up to California, I can't wait to come and take one of your classes and come see what you're putting together. It sounds absolutely amazing. Mo, I'm incredibly inspired by your message and your journey. Is there anything else that you feel like we could close with? I have so many I still have so many questions, but I want to be respectful of your time, and maybe we could do this again in the future. And I really, I just feel honored to have this opportunity, and thank you so much for being open with your story and for trusting me with your story too. That means so much to me. I feel really honored. Is there anything else that you would like to add? Mo, just as a you know, final words of encouragement or motivation for for maybe any and all of us. Well, I guess it goes back to my TED talk, and us as human beings believing in each other. You know, people make bad choices, but we can still believe in them, to help them to turn their lives around. And I think if we start wanting to believe in people more and give them resources that they need to help them to get to those points, that's what we all can do. And it'd be very beneficial, you know, in this day and age where so many people talk down on people because they make bad mistakes and bad choices. But if we start believing in each other as human beings, we can make this a better place and realize that we're all connected. All these different communities are connected, and, you know, they're suffering in all of our communities, and we can resolve it together. And that's that's the most important thing, yes, yeah. Mo, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you having me. Thank you. Native yoga. Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics. Please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com, and hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends. Rate it and review and join us next time you Well, yeah, now you.