Greg Nardi - Yoga for Change: Breaking Down Barriers

Greg Nardi is a dedicated yoga professional with over 25 years of experience. He is now a Certified Yoga Therapist and serves as a pivotal figure at Yoga for Change, a nonprofit dedicated to providing trauma-informed yoga to underserved communities such as veterans, incarcerated individuals, and youth. Greg Nardi’s journey in the yoga world began with Ashtanga hence his extensive study in India. Greg is highly regarded for his deep understanding of yoga philosophy and is currently based in South Florida.

Visit Greg at: https://www.y4c.org/
On IG: https://www.instagram.com/gregnardi/?hl=en

Key Takeaways:

• Personal Evolution: Greg Nardi discusses his journey from an Ashtanga teacher to a certified yoga therapist focused on trauma-informed practices.
• Yoga for Change: Insight into the nonprofit's mission to bring trauma-informed yoga to underserved communities and efforts to expand statewide.
• Professionalization of Yoga: Greg emphasizes the need for professional structures in yoga teaching, drawing on his wide-ranging experiences.
• Philosophical Perspectives: Exploration of Greg’s interest in yoga philosophy, including modern interpretations of ancient texts.

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Chapters

• 0:03 Greg Nardi's Journey from Ashtanga Teacher to Yoga Therapist
• 12:08 Reflections on Ashtanga Yoga Listings and Personal Decisions
• 15:02 Integrating Yoga Therapy and Trauma-Informed Practices in Teaching
• 27:43 Bringing Yoga to Justice-Impacted Communities Through Fundraising Efforts
• 34:23 Reinterpreting Yoga Philosophy Through Anti-Colonial and Activist Lenses
• 40:43 Reinterpreting Yoga Philosophy Through Anti-Colonial and Activist Lenses
• 46:41 volving Yoga Practices: Balancing Fitness and Mindfulness
• 51:53 Exploring Spirituality and Meaning Through Yoga and Devotional Practices

Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Welcome to Native yoga Toddcast, episode number 192. With Greg Nardi. Greg Nardi is a really good friend. He's a mentor, and I'm so happy to have him back on the show. You really need to go check him out. Well, definitely go listen to episode number five, because that's the first time I was like, reaching out to my friends and the yoga community, like, Would you guys let me interview you? Because I'm thinking about trying to get a podcast going. And Greg was kind enough to do that. And I think the juxtaposition between four years ago and what was happening in the world four years ago and where we are now is so fascinating to me. Please go see Greg on his website. It's for the organization called Yoga for Change, and the website is y4c.org and this is the organization that He currently works for. He you can also find him on Instagram, his handle at@GregNardi, and then he made mention of, I'll put the link below as well for an organization that he made mention of called chainless change. And that website is

https: 2:11

//ccifl.org so if you're curious after listening, you want to dig in a little deeper, click on those links. And it's just a real honor to have Greg here. He's such a genuine yoga practitioner and teacher. His heart shines through in everything that he does, and it's a real honor to be able to call him a friend and a colleague. So if it's your first time meeting Greg, I'm so excited you're gonna love him. All right, let's start. I'm so excited to have Greg Nardi, here to return to the podcast, Greg, you were kind enough to be my fifth guest. Episode number five. And and now this episode number 192, man, I'm sorry it took so long for us to get together here again before we get started. Can you just fill me a little bit about how you're feeling today. How am I feeling today? I'm doing well. I kind of recovering from a little cold, so if I end up coughing or anything during the podcast, I apologize. But, you know, I'm on the tail at the up end of it, so my energy is returning. I'm feeling really good. Have a have a looking forward to the weekend. Work for an organization we just started implementing Fridays off. So very excited about that. Nice. So you have a four day work work week now, four day work week as much as possible. You know, still got to get things done. That's cool, man, that sounds great. I mean, you've accomplished a lot since I spoke to you last here on the show. I know we've stayed in touch personally in between, but you now are certified yoga therapist. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you so very much. Yeah, that just transpired at the end of July. That's really cool. I mean, now, having traversed the Ashtanga world, become an authorized Ashtanga teacher, and I respect so much that at some point you pulled your authorization. I'm correct, yes, yeah, and correct it with 1018 I believe. And then you decided I'm going to go down this direction with yoga therapy. Completed your training. I mean, you've been at this for a long time. Do you feel, I mean, you're a professional. Do you feel professional now? Yeah, you know, I'm good, good. I did not intend to, I did not intend to go to become a yoga therapist. Actually, it was very much related to resigning my authorization, and I just wanted to get some perspective from outside of the yoga community, different ways of looking at yoga, with the intention of trying to kind of shift the way I was operating as an Ashtanga teacher, to be more trauma informed. And, you know, just have some different lenses. And I just love the program so much that, like every module, I just kept signing up, kept signing up, until eventually I was like, you know, graduated. That's cool, Greg. Have you been able to so now you're currently working for or with yoga for change, which is a non profit organization. Can you tell me a little bit about what your role is and what the organization is all about, absolutely. So yeah, yoga for change is just celebrating its 10 year anniversary. We're actually going to be getting together in Jacksonville, which is where the organization started, in two weeks, to meet with the founder of the organization and just have a nice celebration. She's a veteran, so we're going to be doing yoga at the military base and just having a series of events. What yoga for change does is offers trauma informed yoga to a variety of populations. So primarily work with veterans and first responders and active duty military. We work with incarcerated or justice impacted individuals. We work with youth, and we work in behavioral health, and that can really be anybody who's, you know, dealing with the impacts of mental health, which is almost all of us. And so we don't we're decentralized, we're statewide organization, but we don't have any yoga studios. What we do is we partner with organizations, institutions, out in the community, and we bring yoga to people where they're at amazing. Can you share a situation that you have organized or helped to organize here in South Florida recently? Yeah, so we actually this is back in June. We just started working with the Miami Dade Fire Rescue, which is an amazing program, you know, it's a very high stress, high instance of trauma, and they've got a Wellness Department, and the chief reached out to us because he recognized, you know, that they needed to address this, and that Yoga could be really impactful. So we are offering mindfulness classes as well as trauma informed yoga classes to Miami Dade Fire and Rescue. Amazing. And that's one example. There's there's just so many amazing programs that we that we do, and they really can vary quite a lot. That's cool. I know you're in charge of South Florida, so obviously, from florida keys up to up to Martin County. Martin County, wonderful. How many people are involved in teaching thus far within the South Florida region? Yeah. We have about 20 teachers on our team in South Florida. About 100 I not exactly sure statewide, but you know, getting closer to 100 teachers statewide, we are primarily we have the most density, I would say, in Broward and in Miami, Dade County, we have one teacher all the way down, holding it down in Key West for us, we have couple of teachers up in Martin County. Palm Beach is an area that we're developing, actually quite a lot right now, we just got a big, a big opportunity to serve youth in Palm Beach County through the after school programs, and so I'm in the process of developing, you know, teaching capacity in Palm Beach County. That's cool. Is that something where, when they stay after school for like, after care, that then they could opt to take part in some type of yoga class and or is it like a yoga some sort of yoga curriculum implemented into I don't really even understand how the after school programs work. How does that work? Yeah, so, yeah, it's basically, there's some kids who after school day is done, they stay on because maybe parents are working, or whatever it is, till five o'clock, and so they the there's tons of different programs that are offered through the after school program. Yoga is one of those programs got it so we usually, you know, break it up by age group, like kindergarten through second grade, third through fifth, something like that, and we'll work with these groups and kind of rotations, that's cool. How many So, if you're in charge of the South Florida region, how many teachers do you think Nationwide there are? We're not a wide organization. We're statewide organization. Okay. Do you think is there a branch in every single state? No, we. Only in Florida, got it. Got it. Is there? Do you feel like there is there from the founders eyes, a vision to expand on that level? I yeah, I definitely think there is. That's, you know, we've, we're at the point where we're starting to discuss, you know, an expansion plan, a strategic plan to start expanding. So, you know, we are getting really organized around what we do, what we have an excellent curriculum. We have excellent implementation teams. But as organizations grow, obviously it requires a lot more in terms of, you know, organizational systems. So we're getting all that in place in preparation for an expansion plan. That's cool. Is this the first nonprofit that you've worked for? Is, yeah, you know that's it's been big. I mean, I've known you for a lot of years, and it's always I've run my own businesses. I kind of jokingly say, like, this is the first job I've ever had, and I'm 50 years old, but I haven't been working hard my whole life. But it's, you know, I've kind of been my boss and entrepreneurial, yeah, yeah. How are you adjusting to that? I'm sure there's some pros and some cons. It's, it's been a lot. I've, you know, I am, I've run yoga studios, so I've, you know, kind of had administrative roles before. I've had leadership roles before. So that's those kind of skills are not new to me. But of course, working within an organizational structure, you know, it's just new systems to learn. It's it's a new kind of cadence and schedule. I'm used to being in the classroom a lot more than I am now, you know, and it's taken me some getting used to, like, I've always had a yoga studio so I can kind of keep my eyes and, you know, ears in this, in the space, listening to what the students are experiencing, how it is for the teachers, you know, really able to kind of be much more in it. And being decentralized, it's like you really have to rethink so many of your systems. So I have to go out into the field now if I want to sit in on a class and see what's going on. So there's, there's a lot more moving parts to this, yeah, but it's, it's great. I feel myself growing, which is something that is after, you know, like being in a field for over 25 years, to know that there's sort of New Horizons is very exciting. Yeah, that's cool. Do you have time to actually teach a yoga class outside of the organizational work that you're doing? I do, I so I, you know, I've been a teacher for a lot of years, and so I wanted to sort of keep supporting the students who I'd worked with and the Ashtanga community here in Fort Lauderdale, where I live. And so I do, like a practice week, like a my source style practice week about once every two months. And I do one sort of half primary guided class at Red Pearl yoga, local yoga studio here in Fort Lauderdale. Cool. I know that you've had a chance to teach some in Europe and overseas. Are you still able to and you're with still point yoga in London with Scott correct Scott Johnson, are you still able to do that? Or is this job making that more difficult. It's definitely, you know, there's, there's a lot of flexibility in the job that I have, which I really love, like they're very supportive of of work life balance, and sort of, you know, letting you pursue other projects. But there's a certain reality, like, I have to be here a lot more so I am keeping up. I've built a lot of relationships with studios over the years, primarily being, you know, a philosophy teacher and a stronger teacher. And what I found during the pandemic was a lot of the philosophy work really works well online. So I'm maintaining sort of, you know, a lot of workshops that I used to do in person, virtually. And every now and then, I get out there and I do a weekend workshop in person and stuff like that. But it's definitely a lot less than it used to be. Got it is so you've had a chance to be within the organizational structure of Ashtanga Yoga, going to India, practicing, becoming authorized. You've had an opportunity to work as an free agent, so to speak, like kind of on your own, not on the list, although, when I just went online to check in on just like when I typed your name in, I did see that your name still appears on the stronger list, or one of those web pages still exist out there. Are you aware of that? I am so there, you know, that list is something that has had its sort of different iterations of it, and you know, there's a lot of different feelings about it. There is the ashtanga.com list, which. Was the original list started by a woman called Betty Lai, and that's originally where everybody was listed. And as far as I know, I haven't checked in a long time, but as far as I know, I'm still on that list. But then at some point, Sharat sort of moved the list onto his personal website, and then Saraswati patavi, Joyce's daughter and shots mother also sort of started her own list, and I believe I am on her list. Got it not on his, because when he restructured, he made a very, very easy because I think there was a number of people who were dissatisfied enough to perhaps want to be delisted. And so I had sent him a letter directly, and got no response, which is really common when he updated and rebranded his website. He just said, anybody who wants to be listed, send me a letter and show me your authorization credentials and I'll add you to the list. And so since I'd never sent that, I assume I'm not on that list anymore. Got it, yeah, do do you? What are your feelings now, with so many years have passed, and the excitement of all that, or not, excitement, however you want to look at it, do? How do you feel about it all now? Do you feel pretty good about it in your decisions that you made, I feel really good about the decisions I made. I, you know, it's, it's, it was such a deeply impactful life event that, you know, it's just one of those things I think you probably spend your whole I will likely spend my whole life kind of, you know, rehashing it to some degree, or think, rethinking it and that kind of things. But I don't really have any regrets. I there are some, perhaps misconceptions, public misconceptions that I, you know, used to care more about, for example, like, I know, people think that, you know, I resigned as a in protest, or out of, you know, being disgruntled. I never had any issues with Sharat. I actually feel that he was, you know, I feel for him. I mean, I have a lot of compassion for what it must have been like to see his grandfather and mentor fall from grace in the way that he did. I just recognize that the Shango community wasn't really equipped to deal with the fallout of all the revelations that came out during the metoo movement. And part of being an authorized teacher is that you are not allowed to do teacher trainings. And I felt very strongly that if I was going to continue to teach Ashtanga Yoga, that I needed to begin to teach differently, and I needed to start, and I felt very called to do teacher trainings where we talked about things like consent and power dynamics and, you know, trauma informed practice and these types of things. And so it was really for that reason I felt like I couldn't ethically do what I wanted to do based on the expectations of an authorized teacher. And that was really why I resigned my authorization. It wasn't sort of in anger or protest or any of those types of things. Yeah, well said now that you and then in the process of going to yoga, therapy, training, do you see any similarities or big differences in the way the structure is in relation to organization, organizational structure of the Ashtanga system in terms of just, I mean, I I've assume. I don't want to assume anything. I figure so many people already know who you are. They're listening to the show, but maybe they don't, and this is their first time meeting you. And maybe there's a chance that somebody listening doesn't know about Ashtanga Yoga. So I'm just on the level of like, I guess one way I would condense my understanding of how you would have had that experience is that you would travel to India, and at some point, after a certain amount of trips, you would be given some authorization to teach. And then, you know, you get to go on that route. And then, in relation to the way the way the yoga therapy world is structured, can you share a little bit about what you're noticing and how these two organizations are different? Yeah, absolutely. So it's very interesting. I've been a part of a number of professional organizations around yoga, and I am a big fan of professionalization. I actually think, you know, standards are important, accountability structures are important, all those things that come along with being part of a profession. And I've really gone through a number of different organizations and processes around that. So as you mentioned, the process in. So the Ashtanga community is sort of what's called an authorization process. And just as you outlined, you know, you go, you see the Institute in India every year, and eventually they give you permission based on how far along are you in your practice. And you know, how often are you coming? How many trips have you taken? Etc. I've also been a member of yoga Alliance for a lot of years now. Yoga Alliance, you know, one of the sort of misconceptions is that they're a certifying body, which they have not been. They're a registry, and they set standards, and so they've, they're obviously going through a lot of big changes themselves in terms of trying to, like, create enhanced standards and things like that. And I do like the way that they're moving. Unfortunately, I think for a lot of years, they were not really holding people to the standards, and, you know, the they they weren't offering a lot, and I see that really changing, which I like the I A y t, which is a certifying board for yoga therapist. It's the International Association of yoga therapists. They have a very Express mission, which is to have yoga recognized as a viable therapy as part of integrative medicine teams. And so they're really interested in getting yoga therapy. You know, you can do the sort of private practice, but also working within hospitals and institutions. And from the beginning, they are setting themselves up to be a credentialing body. There's a standardized test that they're implementing. So there's a lot more. There's like a higher standard of training, if you 850 hours rather than 200 hours. So and you know, they really work to work in hospitals and institutions. It's like you really do need to be evidence based. You need to be able to speak the language of the medical community, while also sort of holding the integrity of of yoga and what we do as yoga practitioners. Nice, very cool. Greg, amazing. Are you? Can you tell a little bit about now that you're with yoga for change, if, if I wanted to teach, or if somebody listening as a teacher in the south Florida area, area wanted to get involved, what would that process be sure? So we have a contact form on the website, so that's probably the easiest thing to do, is go onto the contact page and submit. There's a little drop down menu, and it says, you know, I'd like to volunteer. I'd like to teach, whatever it is, our teachers are paid, which is not super common for, you know, there's some yoga services organizations out there. A lot of them work on volunteer basis. We do pay our teachers for their work. The requirement is that you have a 200 hour certification from a yoga school, and that you have at least six months to a year of teaching experience, then we have a pretty extensive onboarding process, because what we teach is trauma informed yoga based on a proprietary curriculum. Our curriculum is evidence based. We've studied it. We have got funding to study its effectiveness and impact, so we know that it works. But we really need to make sure that our teachers are, you know, delivering that that with integrity. So teachers come on, and they are expected to go through about a 15 hour training and trauma informed yoga and our curriculum implementation. And then we also ask our teachers to get 10 hours per year of continuing education, and we provide a lot of that for free, which is amazing. We also, you know, if the teachers take external courses and they want to use that as part of their 10 hours, that's fine, but so there's a lot of sort of real training, and in you know what it means to be a trauma informed yoga that's involved in our in our processes. Nice, I can't think of a better person to be doing what you're doing. Greg, to be honest, you put a lot of heart into into professionalism and taking yoga to the next level. So I think when I heard that you were going for this, I thought that actually sounds like a really sweet gig for Greg. I appreciate that. Like I think because of the breadth of experience I've I've seen a lot of facets of the yoga field and kind of what where, you know, what are the strengths and what are the weaknesses? What works, what doesn't? I've had a traditional education over 15 years in India. I've done four teacher trainings in the West. I've worked as an entrepreneur. I've been an intern. The trauma of incarceration. Can you share any insight into what you're seeing and noticing and feeling by going into that realm? Well, I can say this. So we are corrections programs are mostly in North and Central Florida. We have not yet, and I've been working really hard on trying to get into the corrections in South Florida, but we haven't gotten there yet. I've done some prison visits, you know, talked to a bunch of people. I currently sit on the board of directors of an organization called chainless change, which is a post carceral recovery community. I've done some yoga with them, but but I'm still really working to get like, a solid corrections program here in South Florida. That being said, you know, there's, there's so many things, a lot of these organizations that you're going into, you know you're dealing with people who are in high stress environments, who you know are dealing with with trauma, not just sort of previous trauma, but ongoing, complex trauma, because the environments that they're in. And so I know the idea sounds like, Oh, these are people who are going to want to work off some energy, but oftentimes, like, their nervous systems are riding so high all the time that if you can support them to find some some quiet, some relaxation, some down regulation of their nervous system. That's oftentimes what's called for. But it's always like, you know, like anybody else, you gotta be able to read the room, you know, see how people are responding to the work that you're doing. Sometimes you need to do something that's a little more up regulating, to meet them where they're at before you can then work on something that's more relaxing and down regulating. Sometimes people come in, they're so overwhelmed that actually doing like a restorative or a gentle class is really much more, much more beneficial. That makes sense. What type of hurdles or roadblocks are you encountering when proposing the idea of bringing yoga into facilities closer to your home, our home funding, funding, it often comes down to money. There's a lot of programs that I would love to do, and I sit down with, you know, their their directors, and we're all in agreement that this is a good idea. And it's just a matter of, okay, well, how do we get the money for it? And so we do some grant funding, and we do fundraising. So those are sort of the primary ways that that we get paid, or if the facility does have money to pay for the programming as a direct fee for service, we can do that as well. Got it what is? What is like, the main way that you guys fundraise, if there was like one part of the pie that gets the most attention, what it sounds like you said, writing grants, so just approaching other other folks that have raised funds and nonprofits that then share it with other nonprofits. Is that the best way to go? Or is that what you guys are doing? So granting is basically like there are large foundations or organizations that are philanthropic or government organizations, and they distribute funds in the community, and they oftentimes have different, you know, different things that they're looking for, like, maybe this Foundation is funding maternal mental health, and this foundation is Just funding youth or things like that. Sometimes they fund based on zip code, like they want to particularly work in underserved zip codes, or they want to work specific populations. So those are sort of larger organizations that are distributing funds as part of a philanthropic initiative. Fundraising is really more of like getting out in the community and basically asking for money, right? So there's a lot of different ways to do that. We do that through our website. We you know, people go on there and donate money that way. We do different events in the community better, you know, ticketed events and things like that. Have you noticed one event doing better than another? Like, I'm just kind of brainstorm actually myself, like, if I could come up with a fundraising event that would help you guys, or help you and overall the organization, what have you noticed works or tends or has worked? Well, yeah, you know, actually, we have a director of philanthropy, so that's not necessarily my, you know, in my sort of job description, but we are doing, like I said, that our 10 year anniversary is like a big deal, and so we're putting on a big sort of event for that. And that's. Going to be up in Jacksonville in a couple of weeks. We just did the Miami yoga festival down in Miami in March. So that was sort of a ticketed fundraising event. So, you know, different things like that, like yoga studios, if you're saying like that, like really, anything like if you wanted to host a, you know, 108 sun salutations, or all the proceeds from a certain yoga class, or a Kirtan, I know you like music, you know, like that kind of stuff, you know. And then, just like, send that as a, as a donation, and if you wanted support with that man, you know, I'd show up to your studio. Great idea on that on that note, on that note, if you were to come and teach, or just, you know, in general, if you're offering a philosophy workshop these days, because, you know, you've been a big inspiration for me to continue my study in the world of yoga philosophy. And I'm just so grateful for all the inspiration you've given me over the years. What's on your radar these days? Like, what are you? It's such a huge subject, so I'm just curious, and maybe you're either reading a book right now, or there's a specific strand of yoga philosophy that's really capturing your attention. But is there something that's on the forefront of your mind these days, in that field, in that, in that, in that department, yeah, I've always got stuff going on. I know you do that. So I gotta ask, it's, like, very specifically yoga philosophy, and sometimes it's, you know, kind of adjacent, like, it might get into the realm of, like, social emotional learning or neuroscience or something like that. But, you know, I've been a big fan of Dr shamranganathan Over the last few years, simply because I feel like he's saying something that I haven't heard before. And so he just put out a book a couple of months ago that I've been sort of working through, called Yoga anti colonial philosophy. So that's like, really, I think from the philosophy side, he's done a translation of the Yoga Sutras. That is, I find just so exciting. It's very activist oriented. Whereas a lot of translations lead us to believe that the Yoga Sutras are like a renunciate philosophy, which then sort of puts us in a position, well, how does this apply in a modern world to people who are householders, right? So he's kind of having to juggle that and figure that out. And when I started to read this translation of the Yoga Sutras, you know, it's not like he's just sort of making up something new. His premise is that he did a different methodology around translation, what he calls explication, rather than interpretation, and by using that methodology, actually the intent of Patanjali words is different, right, different from what most people have, sort of the conclusions most people have drawn from Patanjali work based on their interpretation of his text. He's he's come up with something different by using a different methodology. And that, to me, is, like, incredibly exciting. That's cool. Can you give an example of, say, one sutra that has a different meaning now that you're viewing it through this lens. Yeah, oh God, so many but I'll just like kind of the gist of it, like when we read the Yoga Sutras, there's sort of a commitment to read the Yoga Sutras through the lens of Sankhya. That is something that you know goes way back through the commentarial tradition that really potentially is sort of, you know, giving it a exposition on the teachings of Sankhya. And in Shams translation, he evaluates potentially on in his own right, and without the prior commitment to Sankhya, he's able to read into the text that Ishvara, the the Lord has, has will right now. Now that's significant in a couple of ways. I hope this doesn't get too technical. You can walk me back if necessary. But we you know, the Sankhya interpretation of Ishvara or of a purusha, is that the Purusha is always a witness, right? So Purusha simply means a person, right? And so it's considered to be the essence of an individual. Each one of us has our own purusha, and that Purusha is simply a witness. It's witnessing, sort of, the activities of the body and mind and the world around it, but it doesn't really have any influence over that. It's just observing and Ishvara, which is considered. Be this sort of ideal purusha, what some call the Lord or God, you know, is then always just a witness in this version, what we actually see is that one of the qualities listed for Ishvara is that Ishvara has will, has volition, right? And so as an ideal person, that means that we all have will or volition. And actually, part of yoga, then, is not simply to retire from the world and minimize our volume, our environment involvement, but rather to enhance our will, to strengthen our will, so that we can actually actively work in the world to disrupt harm. And so, you know, that's why Ahimsa, then, is sort of the cornerstone of the eight limbs. Is because if I'm going to actively use my will in the world, then I have to take a vow of non harm in order to have harmony in the world. I don't just want to use my will to dominate others, nor do I want to allow others to dominate me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was good, man. I love listening to you talk, because you can just, like, explain these things that that maybe I would get tripped up on trying to say what you just said. I It's, I just find it fascinating. It's always been a question for me is, like, you know, yoga is this thing that we do, and yet our highest self is just a witness, and so, like, without a will, how does like, the project of yoga even get off the ground? That's, like, always been a question for me. And, you know, reading the Yoga Sutras for many years, it was just one of those things that, like, I was like, Okay, well, maybe the Yoga Sutras are imperfect, you know, but actually looking at the Yoga Sutras as a cohesive philosophy, not whether it's true or not, not whether it's perfect or not, but that is a cohesive, valid, sound philosophy, you know, now, all of a sudden it starts to make sense. Yeah. I mean, I keep hearing people say that they're disgruntled with our current like, say, politics and or state of the world, slash social systems and all that stuff, and then we kind of can get left feeling like there's nothing I can do, like it's just so far beyond me. And the way you explained what you just did gives me that sense that sure we might feel defeat, but if you exert your will in a non violent way, we could make change, yeah, which is pretty powerful, to kind of bring it back. So then when I feel completely disempowered that maybe I could then remember what you just said, and feel like the don't give up, like we got, we got to work on this, like we can work on this. And which is pretty cool, because it seems like the name of the organization you're working for now, yoga for change, is really centered around this principle. Yeah. I mean, definitely that's why I wanted to move away from, you know, the work that I had been doing, and move into the nonprofit sector. I'm really at this stage looking for ways that I can make the greatest positive impact, right? Like I feel like I'm at a stage where it's like, I want to give back to the profession that has given me so much, but also, you know, extend it, because we also know that yoga, one of the sort of criticisms over yoga is that it's been kind of exclusive and accessible to a lot of folks, and so really being able to, like, use yoga and bring it out to the to the community, and see what potential for Positive, social renewal and change is there that's amazing. I mean, when you were mentioning, like, going into, say, just for example, I go into a jail, and if it was my, if I received the permission from your organization, okay, here's the gig, Todd show up at this time, at this place, like my palms start sweating just even at the thought of it. Have you had any teachers that have, you know, because we get excited and we think I want to do something positive, and then we actually find ourselves okay, well, here's an opportunity, and then maybe we find Am I under qualified for this situation? Have you had anybody find themselves in deep water and needing assistance, and is there a way that you've been able to mentor that situation so that it works relatively smooth? Yeah, it, you know, it's anytime we try to do something new and unfamiliar, it's going to bring up that. But that anxiety, right? And I think this is one of the really important things we're talking about, how the yoga community has gotten largely exclusive and accessible to a lot of folks. What we find is, you know, not solely This is changing, but a lot of people who are yoga teachers come from backgrounds where they have privilege. And, you know, one of the greatest things that we can do, I, in my opinion, is we can start to sort of encounter a, you know, others who have different life experiences from us, who have a different cultural or economic or social background than us. Because I think what we realize a lot is, you know that, you know, people generally have the same ambitions and desires and concerns and, you know, emotions, and I had a really wonderful situation, there's an organization called exchange for change, that I did a that I was partnering with, or working on a partnership with, and they would arrange prison visits. And so that was one of the first things I did, is I started to consider how to work in corrections. Was went to do a prison visit, and it's basically a room full of of guys who are incarcerated and people from the public who come in, and it's, you know, structured, but they sit around the table and sort of share some stories, and then they break you off with one other person, one person from the outside, one person from the inside, and You have a conversation for about 30 minutes, you know. And I was nervous, you know, just like you said, and at the same time, realized, you know, how much we had in common, like conversation flowed for those 30 minutes. It was like a two minute conversation. It was over so fast. So I think breaking down those barriers is is extremely important, yeah, to get back to your original question, sorry, the you know, there are times where people come to our organization saying, Yeah, I want to teach, and I'm really excited about this work, and then they realize that maybe this is not for them, right? And that's not a that's not a value judgment, that's not, you know, it's not for everybody. There's a lot of different ways that we can help and do good things, but we also have to recognize, you know, where our skill sets are and what our capacity is, and so part of our onboarding process is we have you actually go and just like, observe three classes, like, be a, you know, participant observer, just to see if this work is for you, because it really isn't, and it actually can cause more challenges. You know, if we have somebody, the wrong person, in there. We want to make sure that everybody does feel supported, that everybody does feel comfortable before we send them in. That makes sense. That's cool, amazing, Greg. And then I'm curious, just in terms of, like, your own personal yoga practice. Hopefully you won't mind answering this, and I don't know what your schedule is like today. Did you get a chance to do any formalized practice today? And I guess I say because No, the last time, the last time that you had a chance to do like, and I guess I want to differentiate between like a formalized practice. And then perhaps, you know, if you got a walk today, maybe that, maybe that turned into a nice, reflective moment, and therefore we could clump that as a yoga practice if we wanted to go so far and wide out there, but in terms of a formalized practice, I'm just curious what, What are you gravitating toward these days? Yeah, I this is a great question, right? Because I had such a structured physical practice for so many years, you know? And that has really, really shifted for me. So number one, right now, I am just getting over a pretty significant bout of bronchitis, and so I've, like, not just in probably 10 days in a very physical way. Yeah, I tried a little bit about three days ago and ended up in a coughing fit. So, you know, part of my practice at this moment is recognizing what my body needs. And a lot of movement is not that I have made a sort of startling discovery at some point, I realize right now that I am kind of separating my yoga practice from my fitness practice. So in other words, like I'm doing physical fitness as a separate thing, I go to the gym. I run, I do some weight training, and then usually at the end of, like a gym session, I'll do maybe 25 minutes of yoga, just to kind of stretch out my my body after that. But I'm starting to, like, make a real differentiation between sort of the physical yoga and the non physical yoga. So when I do my yoga, movement might be a part of it, but it's not really about physical conditioning or calisthenics. So much anymore. It might it might be more active, but it is oftentimes more gentle, more mindful, focused on meditation, breathing practices, you know, and so, yeah, so I'm really thinking of my yoga and my fitness as two very separate things these days. Doesn't mean every now and again it doesn't feel good, just like, you know, rock out a really strong asana practice, because that still feels really good. That is a startling discovery. I like that. It's funny because a lot of us came into the yoga world from the I'm gonna get fit. This yoga is gonna make me fit. It's gonna make me look good. It's gonna make me feel good. And and it does, and it did and doesn't it did, and but I like the fact that you're looking at it from this angle, I feel like I could benefit from that too. That's interesting. I just, I find that my needs changed as I got older, you know, like, and I think that by I'm sorry this keeps stinging. Don't worry. It's fine. You know, I'm finding that like, like having done a practice where I had done such extreme mobility practice that over time, that was not serving me anymore. It like I said, it can feel really good sometimes, but I also started to feel like I was getting too mobile in certain areas, like my lower back was getting too mobile. I had two shoulder surgeries as a result of torn rotator cuffs, and so I just started to feel, as I got older, that that extreme flexibility was no longer serving me. So I am much more interested in, like, keeping, you know, like, as you get older, you get, you know, sarcopenia is a thing like your muscle mass starts to kind of fall away. So you need to maintain your muscle mass as you get older and a little more focus. Yes, yes. What about in the realm of pranayama, spiritual and or meditation practice? Is there a specific technique that's been really speaking to you lately that that feels fulfilling. Yeah, I mean pranayama meditation, or where it's at. For me, I've always had a strong kind of devotional practice. It's hard to talk about the devotional practice side of things, because I think I have, I um, how can I say this? It's hard to sort of talk about a devotional practice and feel seen and understood, because a lot of times there's an assumption that if you have a devotional practice, that you have a religious practice. I work with deities, particularly the god Ganesha, but I don't see it in the way of like, you know, there's a God as a creator, or anything like that. I really come from the perspective that, like, human beings are meaning makers, and we have the opportunity to make individual meaning, and then we also have social meaning. But I don't necessarily know that our ability to make meaning is representative of any great truth. And so when I work with Gods and I have a spiritual practice, it's really a way of like organizing my experience of reality, whether that is the ability to have awe for the great mystery of life, whether that is understanding influences that are impacting me, or how I want to sort of express my own creativity, my own will, right? So all of that is part of my devotional practice, and that involves different gods and different mantras and things like that. But that's not necessarily saying that like I'm worshiping a god in any type of monotheistic sort of sense. Wow. That's well said. I mean, you started off saying this is difficult to talk about, but that was a good explanation. I like the way you're you made mention of like humans are we like to make meaning. We're meaning makers. And I like that because I you know you, you've been chanting for so long, and you. Ganesh, obviously, was what you were called to and, and, and, or, you know, that's where you found connection. I like the way you explain that, because I guess sometimes I can get tripped up and think like, so does that mean I'm trying to be a Hindu and then if I go into the Hinduism and then, but I'm not a Brahmin. And would a Brahmin let me in. And is that, you know, how does that all work? And I think you explained that well, though, just like utilizing something that allows for us to make meaning, but not, but not saying that there's only one meaning to it all, and that I've just now discovered what the meaning to life is, and that's it. That's it. That's why I shy away from discussing it too much, because I think people often conflate religious experiences if they're looking for some type of universal truth, and that is really not that interesting for me anymore. I think I used to think that way a lot, but I'm really much more interested in, like, you know, what is my experience? Yeah, I'm convinced that, like, we can't really, there's certain epistemic limitations on being human. I can't really know beyond my own experience. And so the way that I choose to organize and create meaning out of my experiences is really what I call spirituality. Yes, love it. Greg, thank you, man, yeah, I'm so thankful. I mean, how many years now I feel, I feel like I met you and you were managing my mid Life Center in Miami, and that was in 1007 or so. Probably I was there from 2006 to 2010 so yeah, that makes, yeah. And, um, what a cool journey, huh? And this whole yoga thing is like, Who would have thought, and who would think that we could make a living, you know, a career out of it, like, where we can actually survive doing this. Because I remember, before I got started, it was like such a huge dream. I thought to be able to be a yoga teacher and make a living, like when I saw anybody that was doing that, it just seemed so almost on par with, like The Rolling Stones, or, you know, like a big rock band or something like, to be able to make a living doing what you love. And I know we have. We've hit bumps and lumps and, you know, troughs and crests along the way. All in all, if you gave a little like brief synopsis, are you feeling pretty good about the whole thing? I am. I mean, I think there's still, you know, work to be done, but I don't think that that's something that ever ends. I don't think we're supposed to sort of, you know, everything's figured out, and everything, you know, like, I'm I think the idea of enlightenment, we oftentimes think that we're trying to, like, get to a state where everything is done, you know. And I don't think that's what it's all about. I think that, you know, we are a process, that life is a process, the world is a process. And so it's really just about like being part of that process, being really tuned into it, making really good choices. So, you know, like, yoga is like that. It is a living tradition that goes back 1000s of years. It's going to, obviously, you know, go through a lot of shifts because it is subject to history, social, cultural pressures, you know, all that kind of stuff. Politics. People like to pretend like Yoga is not political, but it's impossible for it to not be political if we live in a world that's political, you know, so, like, there's all these influences on yoga, and I don't think the idea is to try and fix it. It's like, No, this is the real yoga. That's the real yoga is really just being a part of the sort of ongoing living tradition. And, you know, trying to do do no harm. And, you know, have as much harmony as we can. Thank you so much, Greg. Every time I get a chance to talk with you, I always feel like I leave the table, feeling like I investigate myself a little deeper and and I just really appreciate that. Thank you so much for taking the time to come speak with me again. I promise we're not going to wait for another 200 episodes to go by before I invite you back. And it's a real honor to have you here, Greg. And is there anything that you would like to conclude with or something that maybe you had hoped I would have asked you or brought up during the conversation that you'd like to bring back on the table? No, not at all, man, I just, I appreciate you. I appreciate, you know, the length of our relationship. And, you know, we talked a lot about my evolution and growth, but I've, I've seen it in you as well. And you know, I know that anybody who's been been at this for a long time, you know, who's really doing doing the deal. And I. Making the changes in the growth. So I appreciate you and thank you for having me on. Thank you, Greg, next time. All right. Sounds good. Native yoga. Todd. Cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. 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