Pat Sperry ~ Scaling New Heights: Spiritual Pilgrimages with Peace Love Flourish

Pat Sperry is a seasoned yoga instructor deeply rooted in the lineage of Iyengar Yoga, holding a notable certification that underscores his dedication to rigorous practice and teaching. Based in Mount Helix, San Diego, he is not only a practitioner but also a facilitator of enriching experiences. Pat is the founder of Flourish, a company that orchestrates transformative retreats and events worldwide. With extensive experience in yoga and meditation, Pat combines his athletic background and spiritual pursuits to create enlightening journeys for his participants.

Visit Pat on his website here: https://www.peaceloveflourish.com/?aff=nativeyoga
Follow him on his IG @beflourish here: https://www.instagram.com/beflourish/

Key Takeaways:

• Pat Sperry highlights the transformational power of yoga, particularly Iyengar Yoga, even as it resonates differently with diverse individuals.
• Men's retreats run by Pat offer a safe space to explore masculine archetypes and grounding yoga practices.
• Todd and Pat explore the balance between rigorous discipline and relaxed spirituality, revealing insights into the ebb and flow of personal meditation practices.
• Insights are shared on how cultural, energetic, and spiritual experiences are integrated into Flourish's transformative retreats.

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Chapters

• 0:02 Exploring Life in San Diego and the Beauty of La Mesa
• 3:01 From Elite Athlete to Yoga Teacher: A Transformational Journey
• 17:11 Spiritual Journeys and Meditation Practices in California
• 22:02 Balancing Meditation Practices with Life's Demands and Personal Growth
• 31:24 The Spiritual Journey Through Myths, Meditation, and Self-Discovery
• 35:41 Purposeful Living and Creative Fulfillment Over Traditional Retirement
• 42:41 Balancing Privilege and Drive in Pursuing Creative Success
• 43:55 Navigating Complex Family Dynamics and Personal Growth
• 53:35 Men's Yoga and the Journey to Embrace Masculine Vulnerability
• 1:00:02 Transformational Travel and the Power of Human Connection

Transcript

0:32

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work and beyond. Follow us at Native yoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin, and I'm so happy to bring to you a special guest this week, Pat Sperry. Pat is the founder of Flourish Well Being. He's a certified Iyengar yoga teacher. He's also a professional wellness coach and a heart centered ecstatic. And you can find him on his website, peaceloveflourish.com, and his Instagram, handle the same at@peaceloveflourish, there's also a link there. If you're interested in checking out any of Pat's world renowned yoga retreats, you can have a look at where he is offering some of these, these heart centered retreats that he puts together in various locations around the world. He puts a lot of time and energy in curating a very safe, fun and heart opening environment. And so I highly recommend you check it out. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. As Pat has been in the yoga, meditation and wellness field for many years now, and and definitely has a lot of energy, and this is a really exciting conversation. So I'm so happy that you're here, and also those of you that are listening, remember you can always check us out and watch on YouTube. Remember to subscribe to our channel, native yoga center, to be reminded of every time a new episode comes out. All right. Well, on that note, let's go ahead and begin. Well, I'm so happy because right now I have Pat Sperry here on the podcast and Pat, thank you so much for so much for joining me. Can you tell me? Well, first of all, how are you feeling today? Uh, good morning, brother. I'm feeling well. I'm feeling well. We have some road construction happening in not too far away from home. So every night, from like one o'clock until five, there's this low level Dum Dum Dum Dum Dum Dum, and that's just kind of like in and out of sleep. So I'm getting used to it, yeah, and I feel a little bit a little bit tired, perhaps, but ultimately understood, grateful to be here with you tuning in from San Diego, California. Yes, love San Diego. Where in San Diego are you? I'm in a place called Mount helix, which is a part of a city called La Mesa. Oh, yeah, nice, maybe like 25 minutes east of the West Coast, the beach. Yeah. We have a beautiful property here, with some acres and fruit trees and a lot of privacy, which feels like a sanctuary, for sure, that's cool. How far from Julian Are you? We love to go to desconso, which is about 15 minutes from Julian. And I'd say Julian is 70 minutes. 75 minutes with no there's not a lot of traffic in San Diego. So I descended from Los Angeles to find like, a groovy city with a lot going on that was a little bit more relaxed. Yeah, that's one of the best parts. So we can shoot around and and get to where we're going pretty unimpeded here. Oh, that's amazing. It's so beautiful there. My wife and I used to run a Bikram yoga studio on in Mira Mesa, a Mira Mesa Boulevard closer to the 15 and so I am familiar with actually, trying to remember if I've been to La Mesa, but that's such a nice, such a beautiful part of the country. Well, we're spoiled to be here 1/5 year. But yeah, it is. Hey. It's for a reason. Yeah, it's a beautiful part of the world. I hear you, man, well, I'm, you know, I got a chance to read about your path and your journey with yoga, but hearing about it is always much richer experience. And then reading, in my opinion, you know, see what the brief overview. So I'm excited to just ask you some questions about how you got to where you are. Now, on that note, can you talk a little bit about about that? What was your intro into the world of yoga? Well, Todd, you know, most of us love the subject matter. Of me, and I appreciate your interest in my life. It's always fun to tell the story. And you know, my hope is that anything that's shared about me is relatable to anybody who would be listening, because we all go through the same stuff. But my first I don't know, you know, you can look back in life and say, I was just enamored by nature, and I was creative and writing music and all of that, once you get through like, you know, the practice and you spend time doing your your sadhana, life becomes yoga. So somehow, I was just connected to life in a beautiful way. I had an expansive vision of what was possible, but I would say formally, the first introduction to yoga, which maybe came through Buddhism or spirituality, was in college. I was an athlete at the University of Michigan. In my senior year, there was a very easy class that a lot of athletes took because it was an automatic a and it was supposed to be really fun, and it was called Jazz 450 Martha Travers. Martha Travers was this really groovy woman who taught the music school mindfulness to support them in their songwriting, in their composition. So jazz 450 was like Tai Chi and sitting meditation and learning about the Dao. And it really woke something up within me. I got all the paraphernalia right away, zafu, like Tibetan robes. I was playing the part. I bought a flute. I remember bringing my flute to class, and I asked her if I could, like, you know, lead the opening meditation. Or maybe she asked me to, and I started doing what I could do, like on this little blues scale. And she's like, just play one note, play it long, play it slow. And these little seeds that she planted, yeah, at least shifted, like my personality and my interest. I came to California from Michigan in pursuit of fame, creative glory. I was chasing the dream of being a rock star, and I cut a bunch of records, and was doing the Hollywood thing, the music thing, which I loved, and my best buddy brought me a yoga DVD, Rodney Yee guyam Yoga, burn and my first shavasana like that was pretty much it. I touched something that I had been looking for, whether it was through smoking grass or having peak experiences. And there was this same type of freedom that I felt. And within nine days later, I was signed up for yoga teacher training, like all in you know, I lived at the yoga studio, and that was the beginning, and I haven't looked back, that was probably 2009 what studio was that in LA it was, it was at a man pa local studio called liberation yoga. Cool, nice. Didn't quite make it through the pandemic, but it was around for 20 plus years. Wow. Beautiful space of community, where just a non pretentious, eclectic, creative space that nurtured my teaching and practice, for sure, very cool. And I noticed that you have a background in iyengar yoga, and you've been able to go so far as to become certified in iyengar yoga, which, for those listening that don't know what different certifications and different styles entail, typically, certification for Iyengar is known to be relatively rigorous, like, it's not just a quick weekend type of training. Can you tell me a little bit about your journey in the world of Iyengar? Thanks for asking. Yeah, I was blessed to have like, an Iyengar inspired teacher. Was my first teacher, and I remember his first class and teacher training, I was so angry, and I really hated this guy, because we were holding poses for so long, and it was so challenging for me, and he had a great sense of humor, so he was having fun, and I was suffering, and I thought this was sad. And I wanted, you know, to take my strap and but it was, we had a great rapport, and we built a friendship. So after teacher training, I started apprenticing with him for like, two and a half years, I was at every class, leading the invocation to Patanjali, making adjustments, watching people practice. And as you know, you just see bodies so many times that the misalignments or the corrections and that observational skill becomes really important as part of your teaching tool. But after pagan who was this initial teacher, I was in LA, and the iyengar yoga Institute was in LA and we would have great teachers from around the world come to hold workshops. I was just there. I was always there. I lived in. I was just soaking it up. I really became emblazoned with passion about the subject. And there was a couple good opportunities that came my way, some big teachers at this initial studio who had big followings left, and they said, well, Patrick's always here, you know, let him take my class. And that was a great chance for me to then teach. And as you know, I mean, we talked a little bit before this meeting. Teaching is so energizing and so healing like no matter what you're carrying as an individual, we're all holding our human human stuff and teaching is this medicine which just can shift for me, even more so than the practice. Sometimes I leave from teaching and I feel reborn, reset, reconnected, but it took me seven years to get certified in iyengar yoga. Wow, yeah, went in for 18 months and studied with a really amazing teacher in Rishikesh named Usha Devi for six months, and that was like six hours a day, you know, every day, and just living and breathing practice. And then at the Institute in Pune, I was there for four months with Gita Iyengar, which was a real honor for me, Mr. Iyengar daughter, his son, Prashant. And then, of course, abhijas, now running the lineage, that's Iyengar granddaughter. And I wasn't certified even up until that point, I was just practicing and showing up. But then there's this path. There's two paths of certification in iyengar yoga. One is like a three year formal teacher training, and the other one is through mentorship. So I had a couple of mentors who stewarded my journey through certification. But then there's some requirements, like, you need a certain amount of years of practice in the lineage before signing up for teacher training or before taking on that mentorship. I wasn't in a rush to get the certification by the time I did, I was definitely prepared. Sounds like an introductory teacher? Yeah. What are your thoughts now when you observe our yoga landscape in relation to the way teacher trainings can be conducted. And I guess what I'm alluding to is some are more rigorous, like what you're talking about with iyengar yoga. Some are less rigorous, where I'll just leave it at that, what is your feelings in relation to the amount of time you put into preparation versus and and how does that translate into connecting to yoga and with students? In your opinion, it's a great question, Todd, and I'm sure you have some valuable insight into this question, because I see that you're hosting teacher trainings and moving people through that process, and I've done before I got certified in iyengar yoga, I did several 300 hour teacher trainings with the idea that I could start leading teacher trainings even if I wasn't certified in iyengar yoga. And for me, those experiences were super precious, and I lead teacher training now at a studio in San Diego called reunify. We have 203 100 hour great. It's really the beginning, and my ego was bruised many years ago when somebody pointed out that it doesn't matter how good looking you are, how charming you are, as far as being a musician goes, When the lights go down and your voice resonates through the hall, you gotta have the goods, you know you get. You can't fake it really, and people can sort that out. You know, if you're sensitive and your radar is receptive, you know, to authenticity, then somebody who really knows what they're talking about separates themselves from somebody who is really young, perhaps in their practice. So I would encourage people to do it, to sign up. It changed my life. You know, it was nine days after doing my first yoga class that I took the plunge into 200 hours, and I became a vegetarian. At that point. I'm not anymore, but I. Once for 13 years, and I felt supported and part of a community. And a lot of those folks who went through it are probably still practicing, some maybe not so a few will take it all the way and make it like, you know, the centerpiece of their life, and if you impart that path to somebody taught as a teacher, as a studio owner, then I think that's a huge service to life, but it is the beginning, and your practice is the most important piece of all of this. So when you're in a good practice, your teaching is going to be connected. And if you do your teacher training and start teaching, but stop practicing, I think it's just going to become exhausting. I hear you. That's a great answer, and I do agree with everything you said. It's really good points. Did you because, like you made mention, we had a chance to connect before we hit record. Can you give me a little understanding of your journey through the world of sport, hyper masculinity and how yoga has transformed your experience of your understanding of who you are. Well, you know, I'm wearing this costume with the long hair on the edge of my intensity part of the the game, but I was sharing with you earlier that I came up as an elite athlete, and I was on the US national team as a goalkeeper for men's soccer when I was 14, and then I went to the University of Michigan on A scholarship, and I was a big 10 athlete, and I had, like, a thick neck and, you know, huge quads, and I had to work really hard. It's really great though, because it gave me and instilled this quality of discipline where it was very clear that if you put the work in, then you receive the reward. And having an ongoing yoga practice as you know, this like attitude of tapas, paired with this attitude of surrender and faith and all of that, which maybe wasn't in place as much when I was competing, can really support this continuation of of practice. So that was a blessing, just inherently, I carry that. It's part of who I am as a person. But, I mean, I basically quit soccer because I ended up fighting with my coaches, you know, pushing my teammates over in practice, and I was so aggressive, and I demanded so much out of the world around me, this like level of excellence, and I held myself to this incredibly unrealistic expectation of being the best. A lot of that was imparted by my devoted father, who was really involved in my successes and failures emotionally, kind of wore my life on his heart, and that was a bit of a burden to share, because the implications of my failures, which would be like losing, would affect him in such a deep way, and that was challenging to navigate. Whoa, well said. Nice synopsis of the whole father son experience from from the way you experienced it. That was good, and it was this great blessing too, because in in part, that drove me to seek myself like, who am I, without sharing my life with my family and having this identity, which was a heavy weight to carry. So it took me to California to define myself. And California, a lot of the great gurus of India and of spiritual traditions came to California to set up their ashrams or institutes, because people who come to California have a seekers mindset, like they're looking for something. They're looking for fame for, you know, the possibility for a greater expression in life you're musicians, actors, models and whatnot, there's a promise for something more. So that type of mentality is kind of cultured towards spirituality, if you just shift the gaze to looking for something more in a different direction, like within yourself. Great point. So true, right? When we look at the history in relation to the gold rush. And, like you said, currently with the Hollywood industry, and truly with the spiritual element, like Yogananda, zashram at Swamis there in Encinitas, what an incredible property. Amazing too, to think that somebody gifted that to him. I don't know what the real logistics are, but the storyline I heard, you know, somebody who had that land, you know here, let's use this for your hermitage. And, oh man, what an incredible, incredible spot. What other spiritual yoga lineages Have you tapped into in the Southern California area that I've given you? Lots of motivation and inspiration. I. I found out about yoga, I bought every book on yoga and spirituality, and kind of fell in love and started again, like I collect things to validate my existence, and now I don't need those things as much I had the pictures of saints just sprout, you would was it was interesting. I think my parents were worried about all of these people, but I, I tapped into Muktananda through Siddha Yoga, and he had this beautiful ashram complex set up. And Amma would always come through Southern California and give her Darshan, the hugging saint, right? And then, of course, there was like a flag in the ground for iyengar yoga and Yogananda. Self realizationship was a big part of it as well. Because not only do we have this in San Diego, but there's several places like Mount Washington and the Pacific Palisades Lake Shrine, which were they're energetic places. So in all of my zeal to go to this, like New World, which was like a little recluse in the middle of the jungle of, you know, insanity of Los Angeles, it was really a peaceful place to go and meditate and to just open up to this whole new world of possibilities. Yeah, that's cool, man, what you would I know we share a common thread with having sat Vipassana meditation retreats in the lineage of guenka, which is like a 10 day silent retreat. I'm curious, where was your first 10 day set. The first 10 day sit was in Yellowstone. So it was green stone, like a, like, a, like, almost like they set camp up there for you guys to do a course in. It was just on the perimeter of Yellowstone. So on day 11, I was like 30 minutes to the redwoods and just soaking up all that silence. Well, yeah, it's so beautiful. Oh, my God. What about you? I'm curious, Todd, and do you share this practice with your student base in your community? Do you guys sit together, or just more of a personal sadhana that you've taken on? Oh, good question. So I, I had traversed different meditation lineages. And when I was living in San Diego, a student that had come to when we had the Bikram yoga studio had a bumper sticker on her bumper that said doing Vipassana, doing fine. And I was like, I have no idea what that even means. And I said, What is your bumper sticker? What is that? And she's like, she was very quiet about it. She didn't really want to talk about it, and not in a way of like secrecy, but more, she had such a profound experience when she would go and sit that I think sometimes you know when you try to explain something that's inexplainable, you just stop trying to explain it. And so I that really piqued my curiosity. And because she didn't really want to explain it, it made me want to go even more. It made me more curious. And so upon at that time, my wife and I moved back to Florida, here, here in Florida, and I there's a center in Georgia and town called Jessup, which is the closest center for us here in the southeast region. So my first course was there, and I did and I had set up us sitting together every Sunday morning, early, like 6:30am for an hour, and doing that with just students that were old students that had completed a 10 day course. Then I started to let that loosen a little bit and allow people who hadn't done a 10 day course, which I know is a little bit of a faux pas in that whole world, but the same time, I was just thinking more like, the more we meditate, the better. And I understand the logistics of like, let's make sure someone gets a true initiation into the experience before we maybe ruin the experience. Maybe for somebody, there's so many different ways to look at I'd love to hear what you have to say now that you've been in the world for a while. Because personally, I just start now. I guess if I jump forward my meditation practice, I just I keep it way more loose. I'm a lot less like hitting the timer for the one hour long full sit two times a day style, and just more like, have, I have five minutes right now where my kids don't need me and I, my wife doesn't need me, and I can sneak over here into the corner of my bedroom or have my cushion set, and five minutes. I'm like, Dude, I got five minutes. That's amazing. I feel so happy. I got five minutes and and I also like the challenge of, you know, when we're cultured to, like, Okay, you have to sit for one hour and you get that culture going, and then you think you need the full hour to get the full thing. And I like trying to, like, almost make. Have as much use of a five minute period as possible and be comfortable with that, you know, like, like, just like, that's okay, and be happy with that. So I've kind of loosened my grip on the rules of Vipassana, but I have full respect for it. I have full respect for those that walk that path and hold really strong and true to that. So but what do you think? Where are you these days with all that? It's just lovely to consider all of this with another practitioner, and I enjoyed the conversation. So again, thanks for having me here this way to start the day. Thanks Todd. I just I love Ram Dass so much. And yes, thank you. Was the beginning, actually, if I really look back like getting be here now and getting my mind blown, what connected me so much. And I remember, like, you know, feeling so close to God and feeling connected. And I was savoring that. And then maybe I like, you know, when I was probably 21 in Hollywood, I might have gone out drinking or, like, smoked a cigarette and just lamenting to my teacher that I've lost it. I had a chance to make it, and I just blew it, only to realize that this coming and going is, you know, the never ending game that we play, and getting back to your practice is a great way to reconnect, and we want to try to sustain that, but life happens, and being hard on yourself doesn't help, but it's also human. So we just gradually go along our way. I was so I'm such like a striver, and I try so hard, and I usually burn out three times a year, not as much anymore, but it hasn't. Wasn't too long ago, especially with my business flourish, like I really pour my heart into building this thing out and growing it, and it's my purpose and mission at this point. So I have to also learn how to navigate that with like, a gradual approach, even though I'm sometimes really driving it. But with yoga, of Vipassana was one of those practices which was kind of hard, and my iyengar yoga practice was hard, or it was just fierce, and it required a lot out of me. So I've tried everything, you know, and I went traveling for four years, and I collected a bunch of spiritual trophies and got initiated into a Taoist lineage practicing kung fu in China. And I got initiated into Reiki and different types of yogas in India, like not Yogananda version of Kriya Yoga, but other styles of internal meditations and things like that. And I did Vipassana, but I also did Transcendental Meditation, which, for the first time, felt very easy, and it was like, so I would look forward to it, because it was a relief, and I didn't really have to do anything. That method is quite different. It's not strict. It doesn't even give so much of a technique. It's loose, and in that loose space, like I just felt like there was a lot of like heart. I felt free in that space, but it also didn't quite penetrate as deeply as like the gaze that you take on in Vipassana. So I went to Thailand, and I sat with for like a month with these and I was coming off of a breakup, so, like that really intense Vipassana style, I was avoiding it. Yeah, I didn't need that. It wasn't the medicine for my life at that moment. So it took me a while. I was traveling through Thailand, and I had signed up for so many vipassanas, but then I would drop out, because, like, you know, another Wayfarer traveler would say, No, dude, this. This is the one you want to go to, I'm telling you. And then I would lean into that, but then something else would show it. Finally, I ended up at this wat Tom poo forest monastery and Mei Hong song. And it was optional silence, you know. So that just that was that was loose. I like it, and I kept silence most of the time, but I made some, like, really beautiful connections, and maybe we would share some, like intentional conversation at times, which just felt like it was a good space for me to be in their style of practice was not as rigorous, the sitting wasn't as long, and it was really the following of the breath, like this. Annapana in and out. Focus here come back when the mind is leaving the moment, and then tether a mantra to that breath as well to help you just stay connected to the practice. But more importantly, they taught every day walking meditation through the forest with the same mantra, but focusing on the footsteps and the lifting of the toes and the setting down of the heel, and you would walk so slow. I mean, it was wonderful. It would take us an hour to go 100 yards or so. We were walking with the monks, and we were feeding the monks, and they're begging bowls in the morning. And it was so beautiful. And it was. Approachable. So I teach, like a simple walking meditation at flourish events, and like the instructions of how to do this, I wouldn't feel like I was spoiling the surprise, because vasana happens that initiation over the course of 10 days, and each day, more or less, something new is revealed, culminating in, like the full practice, but here it's, there's no you can come for one day and get the practice. You don't have to stay for a week. And that's what I practice now, more so than the goenkaji style Vipassana, and it's me giving myself the gift of not having to try so hard and just being able to connect. I need I need that some other people maybe lack discipline and are just lazy. Could use not that you are understood, but everyone has their own temperament, and there's so many different practices, not only for different types of people, but for different phases of life, there'll be a time, and I crave it now that I have a family. I recently moved in with my partner. She has three kids. I'm like, I need a 10 day silent meditation, Vipassana style, to just be with me and do that work and hit it. I hear you, man, I love hearing this, too. It's great to these conversations like this, where we just meet up out of the blue and get to trade notes, you know, and compare. It's, it's a really fun experience. Thank you so much for sharing all that I learned, so much that I think it brings validity to time in the saddle and us letting go so tightly of the reins, you know, because, like, there would you agree that there's so much zeal at the onset of the potential for what lies ahead in terms of spiritual growth, and then enough time on that saddle, we just start letting go a little bit, and being okay with that is such an incredible thing. You know, it's like, you're right. I mean, I can, I can relate to everything you said, I feel like I'd put so much pressure on myself to to even within a practice that is potentially designed to release some of that pressure. And I can, I can attest 100% too, with that type a kind of like, I take everything to the nth degree, you know, and I, I find like, what I'm so thankful for now, because for me, nth degree has amounted to physical pain. Physical pain, for me, has been one of the best teachers. Like, I almost think my guru now is pain, but not in a, not in a, like, a weird, sadistic kind of masochistic thing, or I'm learning to be less. It's teaching, I don't know. It's just teaching me direct experience to just chill out. Todd, like, freaking chill out, dude, take it easy. I mean, yeah, it's true brother, yeah, it's guru. And in all of the initiatory stories that are told about boys to men, rites of passage, there's always a leg wound, in fact, that that comes up at a certain point in the story, like enforce, like in the myth, there's a leg, there's a leg, there's a continuance of the leg wound in different myths throughout this this, no way I never heard that before. Tell me about that. It is and that requires the hero to slow down, huh? You know, to get off the look for that, and to sit down. And in that sitting down, you have to deal with yourself and start to do this bucket work, which is a metaphor of, you know, dealing with your emotional world, and you've got a lake and you've got a bucket, and you gotta drain that lake and get to the bottom of it. And that takes time. And there's so many parables as you know about taking time on the spiritual path, the yogi meditating for 100 years, where an ant hill is built around him with two eyes just sticking out. And Shiva walks through the forest and he bursts out, saying, Shiva, when will I be liberated? And Shiva is like, three more lifetimes yogi. And the guy is pissed. He's like, what I've been sitting here, not moving. I've got ants crawling all over me. Oh, my God. And then he's walking through the four Shivas doing his dance, and he comes upon a bhakti Yogi dancing around the tree, going, he's just singing, and he's in his heart, and he says, oh, Shiva, Shiva. Harahara Mahadeva, when will I be liberated? Please tell me. I must know. He said, count every leaf on every tree in the forest, and that's how many lifetimes you have left before your liberation. And this ecstatic yogi is just overcome with joy, wonderful. What great news. Alas, I know that my liberation, you know, is inevitable, and in that moment, Shiva, liberate. Him. The Buddhists say, like your attachment to enlightenment also has to be released, because that's still a desire, and this freedom from wanting and clinging to the outcome is really hard for the Western mind, and the practitioner is seeking something, but we already are that which we seek. And it's a funny game, right? It's right. And eventually, Ram Dass says that every practice worth its salt has to self destruct. It's a method you use that, like a boat, to cross the river, and when you get to the other side, only a fool would keep dragging the boat with him. You got there, so you let it go, and that's what the practice is for. So it will change, and eventually we'll probably go away, but that's like with a caution, because we can't cut ourselves off from our practice prematurely, and unfortunately, I think a lot of the great teachers and gurus of like, you know, the last century, some maybe have, like, lost their way. I wouldn't say who, or even assume that I know, because maybe they're playing a different type of game. But like you, Harner, an audience like you attain some power, a lot of energy. And yoga talks about cities, and you access these kind of mysterious powers, and they are a distraction from the goal. Potentially, says, don't use them. Forget about it. Keep going. It's a it's a side path. So I think that assurance, even for the great ones, just to keep going with your sadhana. But then you have somebody like nimroli Baba Ram Dass guru, who I don't think had a method, and maybe he didn't, wasn't required to do, but he did write in his book every day, like two pages of RAM, and he had a whole library of journals that just said, ram, ram, ram, ram. Well, I never heard that. Wow. A day connected. Have you tried doing that? Have you tried that practice? I've never tried just one word over and over and over again and page after page after page. What an interesting concept for a meditation practice. I suppose it's no different than chanting the same word over and over again. It's just like a repetition of something so simple, bringing it down, like boiling it down into the most simple, simple. The other day, it was funny. I was I had a had a full day, a longer day, you know, and I got to the end of my day and I was like, packing up, and I just all of a sudden it popped in my head, like, chop would carry water. Chop would carry water. Just keep doing it. Just keep going. Like, you know, because sometimes I'll get so wrapped up in, like, thinking like, how much longer, like, not so much in terms of retirement. Like, I kind of figure I want to work. I want to keep I want to be involved in yoga and being around people. It's so much fun. Like, I don't see why I would ever say, like, all right, I'm retired everybody. I'm gonna go hang out my house, and I'm just not gonna interact with the world anymore. Isn't that a funny Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on retirement. What do you when you think about your life? And I mean, you did bring up that you've, you know, you're in a house and you have a new family and you're in the householder role. When you do, you even contemplate retirement, are you not even thinking about that? Now? What is your thoughts on, on all that? Yeah, I'm, like, a very purpose driven person, and also like a creative person, we all are, right, but I've been making art and creating businesses and in doing this thing in the world, which is so deeply fulfilling for me that if I kind of detach from from that, I think I would feel like I just wasn't. It's service, essentially right, like at this point, my purpose is to share all of the gifts that I've been giving, to take what I've gleaned from my practice and impart that which I can to support the upliftment of others. And I love having fun, and it's really fun to share incredible moments with other people. And I've kind of done like the live in the cave thing. So that's not retirement, but it's like a form of renunciation. But I don't want to renounce like my action in the world, I just want to renounce my attachment to the outcomes of all of my actions, which causes me a lot of stress. You know, so for me, what would retirement look like? I mean, I love traveling, I love my practice. I love the people in. My life, my partner, and I don't know if I ever will, I certainly won't stop creating, but I won't stop collaborating. I love the collaborative process. That's why I like filmmaking a lot. And just to kind of drop a little bit more detail on what I'm doing this, this company I founded four years ago, called flourish. It's an event and retreat company, and we create these really unique experiences. We brought 22 people to India last year for 14 days. We went to five cities. It was like an ambitious program during Diwali festival. And we set it up so that we were going to have Satsang and lectures with some of the great saints of India, and we were going to do block printing and all of these amazing things. And these are the high times of my life. So I basically create scenarios of like, what would I want to do more than anything in the world right now? And then I build that and invite other people to sign on and come along experience. And there's always yoga and practice, but there's culture and connection to the nth degree and celebration. We're going to Peru, November 1 to November 11 this year. And again, like just connecting with that indigenous tradition of shamanism and Earth care and Earth magic and the portals and power, and standing on the room of Machu Picchu with 20 other souls and just holding that, I think my father will come on this trip. He's turning 70, so that's a lot of fun for me, I love it, and I don't think I would stop good answer, become a songwriter again and keep the world good point. I like that. So I mean, I get the feeling like even if you weren't generating revenue through the process, you would still be involved in creating something like I'd have to write a song. I'd want to I'd want to create art. I'd want to be in connection with other people. How do you do you see any when you look at the world of money? Do you see money as currency? And so therefore you're just generating currency like you would, prana. Or are you? Are you? Is it a tricky is it a little trickier than that? And these are personal questions, and these are harder questions, because they're, you know, what are we supposed to not talk about money God, and what's the other one? Politics? So we'll stay away from, let's stay away from the politics. That's what we can both agree upon. Let's not go there. Last night, I was just in my bed like, I don't know where to go with this. That's not, yeah, let's not even go there. But if we were to go on the taboo path of money, is that something that you feel like is flowing for you easily, or is it something that is a continuous challenge? It's a great question, and I don't want to, you know, hide who I am at this point my I share my story, but to tell this tale, it's interesting for me, we all have a unique predicament, right that we're trying to sort out. And my karma was to be born in a fairly affluent community outside of Chicago, and I was a pretty spoiled kid. I mean, I don't think it translated to my attitude, but I got everything that I needed or wanted without really having to work for it, even to the point where my father, like, didn't want me to work. You know, there was times like when I was a teenager, where I really wanted a summer job. And of course, I was playing soccer at this high level and had a lot of responsibility as an athlete, but I was kind of deprived, like a certain initiation into the workforce, because I didn't have to consider that so much growing up. And then when I came out to California and I was trying to make my way, like I had some support for my family, so I didn't have to worry about failing or, like, you know, being destitute, yet, I kind of resented that, because I didn't have this drive to make it with the consequence that if you don't you know you're you're going to be out on the street or whatever. So that level of security, in some way, has hindered me and been a bit of a handicap. And it's always two things, right? It's been a blessing because it allowed me to pursue and cultivate my talents and my creativity and all of that, but it also cut me off from, I think, a certain type of drive that could have changed the outcome of some of my efforts, because a lot of musicians look at people like John Lennon and some of the greats like they they didn't really have a choice whether to make it or not. And you approach. Coach, you know, getting it done different way, if that's where you're coming from. Now, my business is generating some income. Is it ever enough? You know, I don't know. I have a nice house. My partner is also financially stable. We're trying to build flourish together. We're growing it, and there's not a ton of pressure to produce, but again, there's strings attached to family dynamics, and that affects the relationships that you have with the people on the other side who are supporting your dreams. So it's a different situation, maybe than a lot of people, but it's complex, and it hurts me and it helps me all at the same time. Yeah, that is a great answer, and I appreciate your honesty and and I really like hearing all that, because it's I find it so fascinating to like you said it's a there's so many angles and so many aspects to it, but thank you so much for for being honest about it. I appreciate it, and I like the way that you're thinking it through and seeing it from from all the different angles. That's really cool, man. I mean, what, what sort of challenges are you facing, and how are you choosing to face them in relation to taking on raising three children because parenting, co parenting, parenting in general, being a mentor, however, we want to look at parenting, I guess I really I'm curious because of based off of your personal experience, like when, I guess I'll start this story real quick and to ask a question, like you made mention of the way that you were able to recognize the role that your dad played in his wanting you to perform in sports was challenging. It was really great. It's amazing to have a parent put all of their energy and attention into us. It's also really challenging to hold that level standard for so long and so high and so then, as a parent myself, when my samskaras, my habit patterns that I ingrained from my own parent, child dynamic. Now I'm with my children, and I can see, I mean, I know every parent listening to this obviously, is, I don't see how you couldn't at some point go, that was my dad. I just said what my dad said to me my whole life, or that was my mom, or whatever. So and it's so revealing and just amazing, and I'm so thankful for the experience and the opportunity. What are you What? What are you noticing the same thing? And can you give an example of where maybe that did or did not occur, and how are you navigating this environment? Thank you for for inviting this inquiry. It's a little different. It's a little different. Catalina and I are looking into having children of our own, and that's a whole different discovery process, and it's ripe with vulnerability, and we're going to the doctors, and, you know, I'm getting my semen counted for the first time, and all of these different things. So that's exciting to imagine. For me, having my own child in the world that's going to be a different thing. The dynamic for me to come in to these three wonderful young women's lives, there's a 713, and 15 year old. I'm not their dad, and I didn't cultivate their world view or influence them from their impressionable years. So I feel not like a father as much as a friend, almost like an uncle, but I love these girls a lot, and it's a real dance, because as much as I want to impart my wisdom and my perspective in certain situations, there's times where they don't want to hear it, first off, because I'm not their dad, and having a new male authority figure in their life takes time for them, so I need to be very patient with this integration process, because Catalina and I have been dating now for three years, and we've had a relationship Me and the girls for that long, but we're two months in to this cohabitating and, you know, everybody demands their own space and has their own way of relating. Luckily for me, I have this man's cave with the yoga studio the bedroom, which is a blessing, so I can come down here and do my work, and they can be, you know, living their life in full force upstairs. But yeah, sometimes I feel rejected. Sometimes like I'm I'm experiencing new thoughts that I've never had, like I gotta get out of the house. Me out of the house before, and like, go by myself to the river just to, like, reconnect with my own energy, because there's so much exchange here, as you know, like, Oric fields extend out in every direction, and we're exchanging energy all the time, and sometimes their energy is chaotic, and it's not like a sweet vibration. But I believe there's no errors in the game, and that my karma and my life has brought me to this point for a reason, and that I can use this as like a steep path of yoga. You know, relationship is a steep path of yoga, if you choose it to awaken, and having three stepchildren suddenly is maybe an even more steep path of awakening, because her mother's there. And it's really I like this type of thing, you know. Like, just to round this off, I was living in a place called Ojai. It's a beautiful nook in California, south of Santa Barbara, and I was just crushing it. I was so fit. I was on my bike, I was running, practicing yoga, building out flourish. And the time came when I got called to San Diego by a group of five spiritual entrepreneurs my age, and they wanted me to fill the open room in their community. And I was like, Well, this is really interesting. I haven't lived in community since. I was like, you know, in the soccer house at Michigan, and that was a different type of culture. And it just felt like there was a huge opportunity for growth to lean into this new experience of living with five folks who I didn't know and really practicing authenticity vulnerability, having those hard conversations to keep things really clear in the space. And that was wonderful for my evolution as a mature masculine energy. And San Diego really opened up to receive me. And then this next step was like, Yeah, two and a half years in the commune, like I feel like I got most of what I came for out of that. And this is the next frontier of bit of a masochist suffer. So throw yourself into the fire. I mean, any Yogi worth this all has to do the same. Put your arm up for eight years until it falls off doing this is my version of that, in hard and beautiful, and I'm, I'm all in good answer, yeah, man, well, you're, you have an eloquent ability. You have a great ability to be eloquent in your delivery of words. Does that just come natural? I mean, I'm not trying to toot your horn and like, you know, fluff your ego, but you know you're you do? You have a good way of explaining and being clear about it. I can tell that you obviously, like, just within the experience of, like you said, being in a commune situation where, if we are intentionally going to all try to live together, it is important to have the hard conversations, because it will just blow up. One person will just bail, another will bail. It'll get ugly, all sorts of crazy things will happen. So, you're right, there's so much growth potential in that. And I love the fact that you're, you're taking on the new adventure with that sort of, you know, I can do this, you know, I got this. But, man, it is challenging at times, and I think we have to be honest about that in our family lives, right? I mean, it is. It's a lot. It's funny. My son is turning 18, and my daughter's 11, and I He's a senior in high school, so I'm having this every time he comes down the stairs, every time I see him eating breakfast, every time I he's walking out the door. I'm like, I don't I just, I'm savoring every second of it, but when he was born, I couldn't wait for this moment like I was like, This is so hard every moment, I finally understood what the word babysit means. It means you have to sit with the baby. You cannot go and make food, have a shower or make a phone call. You can't take so much attention. So now that it's actually at the other side where he's getting ready to leave, I'm like, No, how did that happen so fast? It's such an amazing journey. So I guess, and listening to your story, I'm thinking, before you know it, these three girls are going to be gone and off and running, and you're and you're going to just be like, I can't believe that that's over. It's amazing happened so fast, but I do. I'm so excited to hear that you're thinking about having kids too. And I do wish you best of luck in the in the journey, because it is, it is an amazing journey, for sure, in relation to, I know we went down a little bit on the thread of masculinity, hyper masculinity. And you, you do offer men's retreats. And in the yoga world, I mean, I remember, when I first started, there was this little bit of a kind of thing of, like, you're going to a yoga class. Well, that's for girls. That's a that's a feminine thing. And, and I. Where people kind of, maybe, I want to say, questioning my masculinity, but just, you know, you maybe bump into little situations where people, and I'm also a massage therapist, and so people sometimes want to have judgments or feelings or thoughts about all that. Can you tell me a little more about how you think for those men, for those of you men that are listening and women too, but maybe specifically along the line of for the men that are thinking, yoga is just maybe, am I? Can I do it as a man? Can you give me a little insight into what you've witnessed with men coming together in men's groups, and what sort of challenges and and outcomes. Have you witnessed it's the most meaningful work that I've been doing recently, because I need it a lot, especially as I take on more responsibility in business and in family, like I'll fuck it up if I don't step up my game as a mature, responsible, generative masculine presence in the world. And the studies of masculinity that I'm really interested in come from the perspective of the Jungian study of archetypes, and that there's four predominant male archetypes across culture since the beginning of recorded history. We see these coming up again and again, and that's the king the warrior, the magician and the lover, and those are close enough to the four margas, or paths of yoga, if we want to also extract or apply yoga to this conversation. Let me go back for a second. Yoga was originally created for men, more or less. I mean, ancient yoga essentially was reserved for the the Brahmin caste, who were all male priests, and that initiatory process was from guru to shaisha, which was the teacher to the student, one on one, oral transmission. And there were great female yoginis practicing in the medieval times. And you know, stretching back, there's some historical evidence about that. But for men who would feel ostracized from a modern yoga practice because it's for women. It's interesting because yoga was originally intended for men, and that's part of the Indian culture, and maybe it's out of date. I'm not saying that it should be, but it was, and now yoga has been commodified quite a bit, and it's become like this very branded subject, and everyone wants their Lululemon tights, and that the product industries around yoga are definitely geared towards women. And I know that there's also, like, good yoga clothes for men, and that that's great, but it's been marketed for women a lot. For me it was important, because maybe, of like my my sexual energy, and like as a young man, I was so much falling in love with my female yoga teachers early on, like right away, I went into the studios, and there was all these beautiful women teaching yoga, and I couldn't concentrate on yoga. So I found like a male teacher, who was my first serious teacher, and just observing his body, I felt more familiar, like I could understand he had a similar like limitation in like the narrowness of his hips and the breadth of his shoulders, and I concentrated in a different way. So having a male teacher helped me kind of relate to male through the male mode of feeling expression, and you see it, the practice works whether you're whatever orientation you take as a soul in a body, the practice itself creates transformation on the physical plane all the way to that very subtle level of your existence. So don't wait. You get so many people that come in, young people that say, like, oh, I should have started years ago. It's too late. I'm like, I have 80 year old students coming for the first time, and they're all in. They're like, Wow, I'm so glad I found this practice. It's never too late to start, but the sooner you have that first experience, the better, because it's likely that you'll love it and that you can just get going. Don't delay the journey. Give it a shot. And lastly, if you have a teacher, it's really important your teacher, they have to resonate with you. So if you go to a yoga class and you don't love it doesn't mean that yoga is not for you. It might mean that that teacher just wasn't your flavor, and that I would suggest that you try again throughout a different style or through a different teacher. Amazing, great point. I agree with that 100% Well, you gotta try yoga. You. Yoga is good for men. It's really good, and it helped me come down from this intense life view, which was hard to hold up. It was a lot of pressure. And there's this decompression, or this, like landing into your life, this surrender, right? This Ishvara pranidhana, and it gives you, like, maybe your first glimpse that what it could feel like to just let go, to let yourself off the hook, to have some faith, to practice, really, like physically and energetically, releasing the weight of the world, which we carry as men. And we give men a stone when they come to the men's group, or they come to men's retreat, and that represents this, this weight that we carry, the weight that we carry of our ancestors and men that have come before us, who also haven't really been allowed to feel the full spectrum of the human heart, which is the realm of the lover. And until we just acknowledge that this weight is within us, then we can't do much about it. And when we become aware of it, and we take it out and hold it and recognize it, especially with other men in a safe space, and we can begin doing something about it. And there's so many ways to do something about it, but recognizing that and yoga is a way to reveal that which we hold, and then it's a path to let us release some of that and lighten up. Wow, man. Well, said Your website is peacelove, flourish.com, you said your next retreat is in Peru, Machu. Picchu, correct. November. November. What are the dates? Is it prior to, is it prior to the Thanksgiving holiday? Or is it during? It's prior? It's November 1, November 11. And we'll be hitting up some of these incredible sites in Peru, from Machu Picchu to Lake Titicaca, supposedly the sacral chakra of planet Earth, as well as some other really special sites, like the Rainbow Mountain and Lake humonte. You know, as far as making money goes, flourish is always trying to find a sweet spot, as far as making it as accessible as possible and also providing these really elevated experiences. So we'll be staying at some quite exquisite accommodations, mostly five star hotels. So like luxuriating when you land, and then getting out to the far crevices and cracks of the Andean mountain range to find out what all of those wonderful places feel like. Oh, man coming up. And next year's probably Japan. And then we have men's retreat women's retreat with Catalina. We have paradise retreat every year, which is like a beachfront immersion, six, seven days, a lot of practice, and then this pilgrimage last year, India this year, Peru next year, Japan is a very a deep dive into culture and kind of transformational travel, where we don't practice quite as much, but like we're really soaking up the essence of these beautiful places. Wow, how cool. Pat, dude. I love how you've taken your dream and just putting it into reality. That is awesome. So cool, man. I mean, yes, that sounds incredible. I would love to join. I know I get excited. Yeah, we, we bring on people like you who are excellent, and there's like a quality of a flourish facilitator who is really experienced and also really lovely and playful and inviting. And you have that I'm sitting here with you, and I just see your soul shining through your heart. You have this beautiful smile, and you're just like an intelligent, talented, heart centered man, and that's what the world needs so much right now, maybe there's an opportunity for us to continue the conversation and talk about what a men's group might look like at your awesome studio, just for your community. Yeah, man, there sounds great. X, that can kind of show you like what one session, second session, third session might look like, and it's pretty conversational and relationship building style so cool, cool. I'm totally open to that. I know I and I've been grooving on, like, you live in a beautiful location. You love San Diego. I agree. It's amazing out there. I feel the same where we are here. I just think sometimes I try to, like, trick myself and like in this not trick myself, but in the sense of I already live in a beautiful, incredible location. I often am like, I want to go. I love travel, too. So I'm like, I want to go. I want to go. I want to go somewhere else. And then I'll be like, you are somewhere else right now. Todd, like, this is the somewhere else. Like, why is this somewhere else? Somewhere else. This is the somewhere else right now. But I do think going somewhere else does take us out of our habitual root. 18. And I mean, every time I land off of something, a boat, a plane, a whatever, a bicycle, and you like smell, and you get the different temperature. And just like, it does something to the senses, it does something to the like, I guess when you made the picture of the bhakti now being so happy it gets to count the leaves for enlightenment. You know, it's like having that like little jolt of something different does help us to see the world differently. So that's so cool, man. Well, I'm so happy I got a chance to meet you. Thank you so much for this opportunity to talk. I can't wait to continue our conversation, hopefully to meet in person in future, be it Japan or Peru or any one of these locations, San Diego, Juno Beach, Florida, next year, when I come down for Tony Robbins, let's go. Awesome. And he was just here, one of our clients went to one of his business meetings, like a seven day thing. She came back so freaking jazzed. Man. She was so pumped up. And I was like, All right, all right. I know he's got some magic, for sure. I keep people that go, they come back, they're like, man, he's so good. So yeah, definitely. I know it's gonna happen. And then I just had a funny thought, What if one day, like Moon travel, we'll do a men's retreat on the moon? You never know, though, in our lifetime, it might. It's getting so close. I mean, Elon's launching rockets every freaking day here in Florida, like I get a little alert on my app. Next rocket launching. 730 at night, you go out, you see this big old Blaze of Glory going up there every day. It's crazy. I prom, I bet before you know it. Now I don't want to have the experience. Have you been tripping out on the thought of those two people up in space right now that are like they went for a 10 day retreat turning into the eight month retreat, sitting out in outer space, floating around. Can you even imagine the mind frame? You know what I mean? Like, I don't even know that this is happening right now. That's a new story. I maybe have been a bit, you know? Oh, you got a lot going on. You got, like, going, yeah, check it out. There's some people that got launched off into space, and they're stuck out there, and apparently Elon is gonna go try to rescue them. But are they doing? I mean, can you imagine, I see, how our physical body would sustain seven months of no gravity, I can't imagine they're going to come back feeling all that physically amazing, but spiritually, they might be in light. I mean, I keep thinking about the movie with Tom Hanks the Wilson, the I can't think of the castaway. Thank you. You know, just that relationship, how important it is if we don't have human contact. I mean, the isolation of the yogi in the cave, wonderful, but there we do need contact. We do. I don't know if we can remain sane without another brain to bounce or mirror ourselves off of. So relationship is absolutely critical. I keep thinking of these two people in this little cell together, floating around in space and like, Well, I mean, are you guys gonna love each other? Would you want to kill them? Like, I hate to say that, that's very violent thought, but I mean, can you imagine me locked up with your worst roommate of your life? Like, like, you can't get away, you can't go down to the river. You can escape for a second. Wow. I just, I my, I just been trying to put my stomach unfolding. I know I've been trying to put myself, my God, I know I've been putting myself up there with them, just like trying to feel it with them, and also, just like, pray for them. And just like you guys got this, you can do this. You can do this. You can get through this. Because I've been in some pretty interesting, isolated environments and situations where I, you know, I thought, am I gonna make it? You know? So Whoa. I know I just took us on a different tangent, but, and I know we have to sign off because we have a certain amount of time together. But, dude, I love this opportunity. Thank you so much. Pat and I can't wait to release this episode and everybody listening. Thank you for being patient. And hope you enjoyed this, these stories as much as we I feel like we enjoyed, you know, listening and talking to each other. Thank you. Pat. So much, man, I can't wait to reconnect. Much love, brother, yeah. Native yoga. Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com, and hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends. Rate it and review and join us next time you. For you know you.