Cator Shachoy - TMJ Relief: Integrating Yoga and Mindfulness Techniques

Cator Shachoy is a distinguished yoga therapist, mindfulness instructor, and craniosacral therapist based in the San Francisco Bay Area. She holds a degree from the Iyengar Yoga Institute in San Francisco and has trained under notable teachers like Judith Lassiter and Michael Shea. Cator is also an accomplished author with her latest book titled "The TMJ Handbook: A Therapeutic Guide to Relieving Jaw Tension and Pain with Yoga and Mindfulness." With over 35 years of experience in yoga, meditation, and bodywork, Cator blends her expertise to help individuals achieve holistic wellness.

Cator's website: https://catorshachoy.com/
Follow Cator on IG: https://www.instagram.com/catorshachoy/
Purchase Cator's new book here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/710326/the-tmj-handbook-by-cator-shachoy/

Key Takeaways:

• Holistic Healing for TMJ: Cator integrates Iyengar yoga, craniosacral therapy, and mindfulness to create effective strategies for managing TMJ disorders, emphasizing a holistic approach to wellness.
• Influence of Chronic Illness: Cator's journey into yoga and healing was significantly influenced by her struggle with chronic fatigue syndrome, showcasing the transformative power of alternative healing practices.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Native Yoga Toddcast
• 0:32 xploring Yoga and Mindfulness with Cator Shachoy
• 3:23 Journey from Chronic Illness to Yoga Therapy
• 8:09 Exploring Yoga, Meditation, and Spiritual Practices
• 14:53 Integrating Energy Healing with Craniosacral Therapy for Holistic Wellness
• 22:30 Yoga and Cranial Techniques for Relieving Jaw Tension
• 25:26 Interconnectedness of Jaw, Sacrum, and Energy in Healing Practices
• 33:21 Healing Chronic Illness Through Lifestyle, Meditation, and Spirituality
• 40:33 Balancing World News Consumption with Personal Well-Being
• 46:13 Understanding Kundalini, Spiritual Emergencies, and Cranial Sacral Therapy
• 50:21 Managing Jaw Tension Through Yoga and Mindfulness Techniques
• 54:38 Exploring Yoga, Mindfulness, and Publishing Success

Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Hello. I'm so happy that you're here. Thank you for tuning in this week, my special guest is Cator Shachoy. Cator is a yoga therapist, a mindfulness teacher and a cranial sacral therapist. She has a new book called the TMJ Handbook, and you can find her on her website, catorshachoy.com, and on Instagram at @catorshachoy. Her name is spelled C, A, T O, R, C, H, A, C, H, O, Y, and the links are in the description below, so you can find her easily. All right, let's go ahead and get started. What a treat to have the opportunity to meet and speak with Cator Shachoy. Cator is a yoga teacher, a meditation practitioner and teacher, a cranial sacral therapy body worker. She has just written a new book called the TMJ handbook, a therapeutic guide to relieving jaw tension and pain with yoga and mindfulness. Man, I'm so happy to meet you Cator. How are you feeling today? Great to meet you as well. I'm happy to be here. Oh, thank you. My good friend Michael Shea, came and visited the other day, and he said, I really think you should bring cater onto the show. And so then he loaned me your book, and I've been really enjoying checking it out, and so I'm just happy to have this chance to meet a fellow yoga practitioner, teacher, body worker. You're located in Northern California. Is that true? Yeah, that's right, the San Francisco Bay Area, beautiful. How long have you been there? Long time. Great. Yeah. I moved here at my Saturn Return, as so many of us do. Well, that's nice. I saw some of your photos on on Instagram. It looks beautiful, the the beach, the ocean, pictures of the moon, some flowers. It looks like the natural beauty where you live is quite spectacular. We're very lucky here, for sure. That's cool. When I when I went through your bio and saw some of the people that you studied with, you've had a you have a very impressive resume. And I'm curious, if we start in the world of yoga, where and what is your history in relation to yoga practice? How did you first get turned on to yoga? Yeah, thanks. I had chronic illness when I finished college. I was an athlete throughout high school and college, and my last year of college, I was kind of like a steam engine running out of steam, and that there wasn't really an explanation for it. I was, from our view, very, very healthy, and they were like testing me for brain tumors, which thankfully was not right, or was not what was happening. And so after graduating, at some point, I began to research health and healing, because I wasn't getting help from conventional medicine. And, you know, I just, I just reached a turning point where it was like, Okay, I'm tired of beating my head against a wall. There must be some simple things that I could do to be in less pain each day. Was how my mind kind of reframed it. And so I went to research health and healing at the local bookstore, and, you know, it was like a light bulb turning on, like I found the health and healing aisle. And the books I read had a lot of suggestions, and they were like, try yoga, try meditation, you know. So this was back 1980 Yeah, early, 80 no nine. I graduated from college in 90 So, 9192 Boston area, so yeah, try yoga, try meditation, try this vitamin protocol. Try vegetarian diet, try acupuncture. Try. Medicine, all of which was way out of my familial cultural paradigm, and there was a lot of immediate resonance for me. So I was curious and receptive. So I started to try things, and I went to a yoga class in Boston. I think it was in somebody's house, or else, it was in a church basement. You know, it's before there were many yoga studios. And before the class began, I walked into the room. Was like, Oh, this is what I want to do with my life, which might sound very strange, but there was just a sense of reconnection for me. Yeah. And similarly, with meditation and then with energy healing, very cool. And I saw that you are a Certified International Yoga therapist. Did I get that right? Isn't it? C, I, a, y t, it's International Association. Thank you, yoga therapy. So you become a certified yoga therapist. And I also noticed that you've spent a lot of time studying iyengar yoga. How do you see iyengar yoga and yoga therapy blend together? Do they support one another? Do you see big differences between the two? How have you blended those two worlds together? Yeah, it's a good question. Yoga Therapy is vast. So people can do widely different forms of yoga, and it can have a therapeutic Uh oh, we got a little glitch. Let me wait for it to come back in. We might have had uh Oh, um, I'm so sorry you might have a very different approach to yoga therapy than I do, or the have a kind of an umbrella application, and they just want to know there's a depth of study and that there is practical application. So a younger yoga certainly has therapeutic application. In my I did not take a specific yoga therapy course because my training at the iyengar yoga Institute in San Francisco is recognized to have therapeutic applications. So those applicants, as well as those who are have completed the introductory levels of certification through the iyengar yoga National Association are pretty much going to be accepted to the yoga therapy credential, because there's a recognition of the training involved. Nice, amazing. I've heard incredible things about the Iyengar Institute in San Francisco. Can you paint a little bit of a picture for me, what it's like when you go there, yeah, well, I actually think it doesn't exist anymore. Oh, wow, did it close down? This is like a breaking news, yeah, I think the pandemic, the pandemic really did it in, you know, so I think it's just in the last couple of months that they've decided to dissolve the organization. Wow, and it's been around for 50 years, like a staple in the Bay Area for yoga, right? Like, I mean, yeah, really a national, you know, a national model in some way. I mean, it's certainly recognized around the country and even internationally. You know, when I trained there, yeah, people were coming internationally, to come and live in the San Francisco Bay Area for a couple of years to do that training. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that would have been, that must have been hard having that close. I mean, that sounds How did you take that news? Yeah, I was surprised. I was interested and curious. I haven't taught there in years, so, you know, there's we can talk a lot about a younger yoga and my relationship to it, but you know, because there's some really big shadows, so there's some tremendous benefits to the training, for sure, and there's some really big shadows in the organization and in the structure and in they can't, they can become systemic in terms of how people are trained, so I had to unlearn some things. Yeah, and maybe that's always true in our lives. We have to find our own way. Great point, and I have heard a lot of it. I bet you know a ton more than I do. But maybe let's keep moving along so that, because we there are shadows everywhere, aren't there and but let's touch upon it. But I want to keep going a little bit in relation to I saw that you studied a little bit with Judith Lassiter. She's amazing. I had a chance to interview her here on the podcast, and I loved it. She was incredible. Did you learn a lot from her? Yeah, I studied with her some. She was actually one of the teacher trainers. She doesn't she didn't teach much in the teacher training program at the younger Institute in San Francisco, but she did teach occasionally, and so that's part of where I met her. She did teach during the time that I was there. Nice. And, you know, Judith is really, really clear. Yeah, and she has a confident manner and a generous and kind presence and very respectful, yeah. And so I certainly learned a lot from her. She was one of my people who signed off on my preparation for the Iyengar assessments. And, yeah, I have enjoyed working with Julie. That's so cool. I saw in the realm of meditation, you've had an opportunity to did you study with the insight meditation? Yeah, primarily what we call in the West, Insight Meditation Vipassana. Vipassana is sometimes misunderstood as being exclusively related to the Goenka, the Goenka lineage. But in fact, Vipassana is just the the Pali term for insight meditation. It translates literally to insight meditation. So in the West, we've mostly changed that to be in like the Insight Meditation Society in Barrie, Massachusetts, and there's one here locally in Redwood City, and there are smaller insight organizations around the country. I have had a chance to take some 10 day retreats in the guenka style, but I have not had a chance to go to the insight meditation. Have you experienced both, or not the guenka and solely the Insight style? Yeah, it's a good question. I haven't studied a lot with Goenka. One of my primary caters was Ruth Dennison, who is a peer of Goenka. They were actually training together in in Burma, and they were credit, yeah, they were credentialed by the empowered by the same teacher. And Goenka was kind of put in charge of all the after the passing of their teacher was kind of put in charge of all the ordained teachers, so I have practiced some in Goenka style community and listened to audio recordings. I haven't done a Goenka style 10 day retreat. I'm familiar with the with the practice and the system got it. Yeah, wonderful. Do you still currently practice meditation? Oh, yeah. Do you practice fundamental to daily life, daily practice? Nice and do you, do you stay within the framework of the Vipassana technique in your daily practice? Or have you, you know, I've had a chance to practice with Michael, and he's introduced me to so many wonderful Tibetan Buddhist meditation techniques. I'm curious if you've also branched and out into a wide array. Yeah, yeah, thanks. I've been practicing now for about 35 years, and I began these practices in 1990 so, you know, variety is a spice of life, right? Yeah. I mean, I've certainly insight meditation is, is my home. And I've spent, you know, I've been doing that for 35 years, and, you know, I've had some exposure to Zen, and more recently, the last decade or so, more of the Tibetan Vajrayana style. And last year, I've been doing an intensive program in the Vajrayana tradition. Wow, so. But they all become, they're, they're like different flavors of the same thing. So it's quite and it's skillful means, like the Buddha himself. He taught, he taught individual techniques to whoever was in front of him, right? And that's the intent, is like, especially after you practice raw so especially for me at this point, I think of it as, like, you know, when you have a glass, a jar full of rocks, you know, and then you pour the sand over it, and the sand goes into the little, tiny cracks, you know, yeah. Or if you pour, if you have a full glass of ice, and you pour the water over it, and then the water fills in. It's like that. It's like filling in the gaps in awareness, you know? So, yeah, applying different techniques. Because, you know, the mind is very challenging. We need to keep working. I agree. And then you, you, and then this whole other world that you've branched into in relation to massage therapy and cranial sacral therapy. Can you give me a little bit of understanding of what modalities and or what style of training you're you're focused on mostly these days? Yeah, thanks. I have. I haven't done a lot of massage therapy. I had a little bit early in my training, although I knew it was never my focus, but it was just because I wanted a little bit of that background. I began with energy healing, and it was really a spontaneous experience back in the era that we started with, where it was like, Oh, I went to a yoga class, I was trying to heal from chronic illness. And went to yoga class, it was like, Oh, I'm home, you know. And then I went to a Buddhist center, and was like, Oh, I'm home. And then a little bit later, I wanted. To go. My mind was saying, we I want to live in an ashram. And I was like, Okay, I don't know what an ashram is, but we can do that, because I like learn to listen to myself, you know. So like, okay, okay, yes. And so I was visiting Kripalu center back many, many years ago, back when it was still an ashram, you know, in the early 1990 or 1991 around then is this When was Amrit, the size still, wow. So you got to experience all that too. You've, yeah, I'd love to. Okay, I'll let keep God. We can talk about that. Another shadow, another shadow lurking out of it. Okay, yes, humans have shadows. It's part of our nature, and that's why we have to keep filling in the gaps and exploring right? Like, all of a sudden, like, wait a minute, I had no idea there's gonna be that much shadow going on. And now, how am I gonna process all this training I've been studying, I've been doing, but then I have this shadow element come into play, and it sometimes changes everything. But I'm so happy to hear I'm not alone so, but I'm curious, can you keep telling about your kapalu experience? Yeah, so I was there visiting. I was, I was, I think I might have been doing a trial residence stay or something. I don't know. I was there as a working guest, and I, I was having a little bit of a relapse of chronic fatigue. I wasn't feeling well. And somebody on my work team who was also visiting said, I think I can help you. And so then they found a room, and they brought me just for a quiet space, and they brought me in there and said, Stand here. And I stood there in the middle of the room, and I did these sweeping gestures over my body without actually touching me. And I I felt all this stuff changing in me, and I kind of blurted out, what are you doing? And at the same moment, my mindset, I want to learn how to do that, you know, so it piqued a deep curiosity in me, and I asked him afterwards, so, you know, how did you learn that I'm interested, I'm curious. And he talked about taking, like, every course you get his hands on, for five years. And I thought to myself, well, it might take me 10 years, because maybe I don't have as much time as he has. Maybe I don't have as much money, you know, but he mentioned a course there Kripalu, which was a week long energy healing course. And I went back and took that the next year, and that was like polarity therapy and chakra or field work. And while I was there, I met somebody, like, a long time resident to Apollo, or community member who was starting a training, like, maybe the following year or something. And so I signed up for that, and that was like for a couple years. We met every six weeks, so we recognized we were community. And that was like a smattering of techniques, and it included craniosacral and yoga and lots and lots of stuff. And the craniosacral really stood out to me as a technique that was essentially energy work, but was more grounded because you're working with the cranial wave, or the inner tide, or the CRI cranial rhythmic impulse, whatever name all the same thing, whatever we want to call it, which was a physiological phenomenon, and tracking that meant that we could have a neutral correspondent for what was happening in the client and energy work has this kind of nebulous realm, human humil, who is one of my main teachers, calls the human energy field the dream body, because it's where we manifest our hopes and dreams, and it's very slippery. And so there's always the potential to miss your client if you've got a practitioner as a practitioner who got something you really want, and you an unconscious view, a shadow, right? You can miss the client. You can believe you're having a certain experience. And I know I've experienced that both as a practitioner and a client, that the practitioner said, oh, all this, all that, you know, and I've been like at that, that ain't happening, you know, I'm like, over here, and I know I've done it as a practitioner, so the cranial work really stood out to me as a way to be more precise, nice. That's so cool. What an amazing blend. I mean, you've, you've done so much training. Do you do you stay forever student? What? What training are? Are you taking a training right now in something, well, I'm finishing up this year long Vajrayana Buddhist training. Got it so nice. And so that leads me to then wonder, like with your new book, the TMJ handbook, the TMJ the tempura mandibular joint, are John. Ah, how did you get so specific with this particular issue? How did that come about? Because that's so such a specific thing to focus your all your work around. Can you give me a little bit of insight as to how that came about? Yeah, sure. And I would preface this by saying I don't think I ever any time focused all my work around it, because life is just kind of too interesting, but it did present itself as a cranial practitioner. I'm trained to work with jaw tension, and there's really not much available for people who are suffering from what we call TMD, temporal mandibular joint dysfunction, or jaw tension or jaw pain, and it can have really vast repercussions throughout body and mind. If you're in a lot of pain, certainly, that can lead to a lot of distress, and if you can't find solutions, that can lead to even more distress. And it can have lots of causes that come from mental health, physical health, structural, physiological, you know, just all over the map. So it's a very interesting condition from my viewpoint as a cranial practitioner, and people would come to me for help with that, and because I'm here in the San Francisco Bay Area, and maybe because people know me as a yoga teacher and is a mindfulness instructor. My clients often did have a background in yoga and or mindfulness, and I became curious about whether I could support them in their recovery through developing yoga which was oriented towards relieving the jaw tension. It's I totally spaced out what I was gonna say. Yeah, I'll let you do it first, and then I'll get a chance to do it later too. So good. We need to space out every now and again. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm curious how, in, how the team, how you, what caused you to kind of like, really go in on, let me just focus yoga technique, cranial technique, meditation technique, that will help to alleviate TM disorder, yeah, so, Um, I guess, what? Tension is really pervasive. It's upwards of 30% okay, and it's really uncomfortable. And your dentist can give you a night guard right, which will mitigate the symptoms and the repercussions, but it's not going to stop you from clenching so you're going to bite down on plastic. And there is some benefit to that, if it's well designed in that you can't wear down the surface of your teeth. Okay? You need your teeth for your whole life. You only get you get two sets, but one's gone by the time you're 10 or so, you know. So hopefully they're gonna have to last you a long time, right? It can also a bike, or can also mitigate headaches and jaw pain, but it's not going to stop you from clenching, and people often feel it actually increases their clenching. And some people find it very uncomfortable, and, you know, wake up with it, like thrown across the room. Others like it, but not everyone feels that way. Yeah. So I was just curious about, could I apply craniosacral understands how this jaw is intertwined with the entire body, and so a younger Yoga also understands that we can work with one part of the body to influence another part of the body. So applying principles from craniosacal of how we understand the jaw to be intertwined with the body. And then iyengar yoga, which has this very interesting understanding of physiology, and particularly my teacher, Ramanan Patel, would work with the values, the winds, the subtle winds from Ayurveda called Vayu is just the word for wind, but the movement of energy in the body. So he described phenomena that were very similar to what we experience in craniosacral and he described it as coming from the values how they how the winds are, and how one action influences another wind, and that gives you a certain result. And he could do it systematically. In cranial sacral, we could do a similar thing. We have a different explanation. So just was very curious about, could I develop some yoga I like to support the autonomy of the client? And so I was curious about, can I empower people to be involved in their own healing in this way? Yes. Is there the one of the one question I have, and I've, I've come across this from first time I heard this was, I was practicing with Richard Freeman in an Ashtanga style class, and he had made mention of. Connection between the sacrum and the palate. And he kind of directed us toward, you know, sensing the roof of the mouth and then seeing what kind of effect that would have on the sacrum. And I, I was like, what like? I just never came across that before. Can you share a little bit about what you have come across in relation to areas that that seem to play off of jaw and or mouth troubles? Yeah, sure, I'm curious. Did Richard Freeman? I've heard of him. I haven't ever had the opportunity to practice with him, but did he give any explanation for that phenomena? Ooh, you know, it was in a large workshop setting and out in California, and I don't remember that part of it. I just remember there was this just reference toward put attention on the roof of your mouth and then let that get your sacrum to or the musculature around the sacrum to release, to relax, and so it just kind of put my mind in a place that I'd never connected dots between. I just never, I just didn't, wasn't thinking about my mouth, the roof of my mouth, my pelvis, before. So I, I, but it's so fascinating. And I I'm curious, um, you know, if there's if you have any insight around that, yeah, yeah, no, it's really interesting, like the phenomena we can experience, and then how do we explain it? And it can often be explained. You know, each paradigm has their own explanation. Or we could just experience it as phenomena. But if you're a healer, you want to kind of develop a systematic approach, right, so that you can replicate the results. So I just taught a workshop called the core link yoga. And the core link head to hips connection. So in craniosacral, we recognize something called the core link, which is the dural membranes, the spinal membranes inside the spinal column, connecting the sacrum with the skull, because those membranes attach at the base of the skull, little bit at the top two vertebra, but most of the base of the skull, and then they are continuous with the membranes within the cranium. Okay, they're supporting your brain and allowing the fluids to move through the brain. And then they those membranes attach at your sacrum, okay, but they're free flowing within the spinal column, and so the cranial wave is transmitted through them. Those membranes are stiff enough that they're fluid, but there have a stiffness to them that they can transmit structural imbalances. So from the my viewpoint as a cranial practitioner, it's like a super highway of information, structurally, yeah, there's right side body restriction, or a left brain right body restriction. Or, you know, because it can go a lot of different ways. So that's something like, if someone has a occipital lobe, a temporal lobe restriction that might manifest somewhere else in their body on the right side, right? Yeah. So, yeah. So that's one way to view that the other. And I go into this in the book. So in the inner tide chapter, I talk about some, for me, some of these bridges that we're building. And that was some of my inspiration, what I was learning from Ramadan, and what I was learning from humil, and what I was experiencing in my own body. So Ramanan can do similar things. And he explains it through the winds the vayus in Tibetan Medicine, it's called the room. And so he talks about how. So there's five of them. There's the the pranas is another name, right? So there's one that goes from outside the body, like from the crown down to the navel. There's one that goes that counter poses that from the navel back up. And then there's one that goes so that the first one, though, is bringing information from outside in, yeah. And then there's one that goes from the navel down through the feet into the earth. That's the elimination the apana Vayu. And then there's one that expands from from the heart outward, and there's one that contracts from the that said digestive from so circulatory here at the Art and digestive here, lower abdomen got it. So what Ramana would say? It says someone would come in with like a headache, let's say, or sinus, sinus congestion, and he would put them in a supported pose, and this is in a class of experienced yoga practitioners. And so people can work with a lot of intelligence and sensitivity. And so they would be maybe in Dandasana or upavistha Konasana, sitting on the floor, wide leg pose or straight leg pose in the way that it was comfortable for them, or in a Virasana, and then have support behind them, and then maybe the walls. Behind them, or have a bolster, or whatever they need, right? Yes. And then someone comes and stands at the tops of the thighs, and again, you know, they can support on the wall. So it's not, this is not like a aggressive, uncomfortable thing done with a lot of intelligence. It's like a sophisticated form of bodywork, yes. And then there would be a physiological change as the femur bone changes its position in the hip socket, just very subtle change, and you can feel one's a little more forward than the other, you know. And as it releases, the phenomena would release, the sinus would begin to flow, or the headache would release, right? And his explanation, I've experienced all sides of that. I've been the one sitting on the ground with people. I'm standing on my thighs. I've been the one to stand on the thighs. I've been the one in the room observing it. And the way he explains that is the apana Vayu, the lower breath needs to be is blocked. It needs to be freed up. And when that's freed up, the thoracic breath frees up. And that's what's freeing the congestion in the head. So I saw these two different explanations of the same phenomena. You know, it was very intriguing to me. And I don't, I don't know that there's any one answer. I think that different paradigms, you know, acupuncturist explains it this way, crane Segal explains it this way. Yoga explains it this way, right? Nice. Great point. It's really cool to think about it from the angle of the like cerebral spinal fluid versus wind, or the movement of wind. Can you help me understand a little more about the value concept in relation to is it? Is it like explained that there is air traveling from one place to the other. Or is it more like you imagine that, like I is that more of an energetic sort of, it's energetic, yeah, it's kind of Yeah. And you know it, it's not only energetic, though, because energy influences the physiology, right? Yeah. Why do we get a stomach ache? Well, maybe we ate something bad. Maybe we ate something we can't digest. Maybe we're anxious. Maybe we've we're anxious enough that we've pulled up our roots from our feet, and we're simply not circulating energy down into our roots, into our feet, and so energy is getting congested, and you can't digest food, and then you have a stomach ache, right? Yes, instead of going the energy's flowing down and out, they've reversed to come back up, and then if you get if you actually throw up, that's like the energy has reversed so strongly to forcefully push something out of the body. That makes sense when in relation to your initial illness, and then seeking solutions and then diving into this world immensely or with a lot of you've been at it for a long time. Have you had any clarity about what the cause of your initial chronic illness was, yeah, it's a good question. I don't think that I can say there was one cause. I can see a variety of causes. Certainly, I think the stress of college, like understanding my personality and that strong performative stress was a big part of it, and I simply didn't understand it. And then I would say that I was sensitive enough to be affected by how I was eating, and not that I was eating particularly poorly. But, you know, I've learned a lot through Ayurveda and Chinese medicine and the Tibetan Ayurveda about how to balance myself through what I eat. You know, so that I was on crew my last couple years there, and that was up at 5am and I think I just was, I didn't have any sense of my limits, you know. I do also think there was a, you know. So there was also trauma in my early childhood history that I wasn't really aware of. So I was just kind of like doing, living an unconscious life, putting myself out there and and so that, I think that trauma as being on my own kind of came more into play, you know, and that the challenges for my nervous system to meet the demands upon it, you know, yes. And then the last thing I'll say about it is that I think it was also a spiritual illness. In some way. It was absolutely a physical, physiological illness. But also, you know, where I had this sense of reconnection with the yoga and the meditation and the healing, I feel that there's like in Buddhism, we talk about spiritual messengers. You know, that's how the Buddha got on the path, before he was the Buddha when he was a prince. But. Um The these devas spirits appeared as someone who was old, someone who was sick, and someone who was dying, and they sparked in the Prince Siddhartha the desire to awaken, to find a way to help people out of these guaranteed miseries in life. And I feel like there was some aspect that was like, cater is not living the life she could live, you know, like she needs a little redirection here. Yes. Well, I like that. I like that. Framing it in that context is, is great? Yeah, well, that's cool. Do you is it? Is that a level now that you have been steady enough for long enough that you don't have any reoccurrences. Or is it something that you need to still really just kind of be careful, you know? Is it something that's like in the past, or is it something that like, if you eat like crazy and do wild and go crewing at 4am and all that stuff, that you have this reoccurrence situation? Yeah, no, it's definitely both. I am very mindful and attentive of my lifestyle, which I think is important for anyone and and, and particularly as we are on a spiritual path or a healing path. You know that's fundamental to our to awareness, to, you know, we want to create a stable life as much as we can. And I think anyone who really tests those limits is met, you know, met with certain challenges. So, yeah, I'm very careful with what I eat and with my diet and with my lifestyle, I have, I have more wiggle room, for sure, yeah. And I also take significant breaks. You know, for me, about every decade, I mean, I do regular meditation retreats, you know, a month or two a year. And about every decade, I feel a strong need for a big break, you know, like six months retreat, or, yeah, just taking a lot of time. Have you when you do a six month retreat, is that like you going into a cabin in the woods and self retreating, or is this you going into a structured retreat environment? Yeah, both I've done, I've done all of the above. Lately. I've been practicing a lot at the forest refuge in Barrie, Massachusetts, which is affiliated with the Insight Meditation Society. And then it's it's a separate facility there on that same campus, and it's designed for long term retreatants. It's designed for people who have an established meditation practice. So it's limited to 30 people. There are 30 single rooms there, and there's just a very bare bones schedule structure, like the meals are out at certain times and a few talks a week and a few meetings with a meditation teacher. But other than that, you set your own schedule, and that's really where I where I floor, I feel like, for me, meditation is a lot of deep listening to my own rhythms, you know. So that was works very well for me. That sounds amazing. What a cool way to structure it. Where you have, you know, you have meals prepared. So it's like, you still have to go into town, grocery shop, cook for yourself, but at the same time, a loose schedule, like, like, you get to kind of figure out what you want to do and not, oh, hear the bell at 4am although you're probably up at 4am meditating because you have so much free time, you're like, I'm here. What else am I going to do? People are different, and it's something you find as you develop your meditation practice. More is finding your own rhythm. Some people stay up very late. Some people get up early. You know, getting sleep is a part of meditation practice, for sure, and we each need different amounts of sleep. But my personal experience, and you know, healing from chronic fatigue and understanding my nervous system is that it's really important for me to rest, and then more attentive and more at ease when I rest. Yeah, how are you with handling taking in information about world news these days? Because are you needing to cut that off, not look and focus on yourself so doesn't get overwhelming, or are you able to engage with that and process it in a healthy way and move forward. Yeah, really good question. Actually, just wrote about this in my last email out to my, you know, my just my client, my little email list. Nice. You know, I'm actually, the world is very interesting. It's so interesting, isn't it? I mean, what do we even? Where do we put our finger? You know? And it's like, you put your finger to try to touch on something in it. How do you make sense of it? You know? It's like, it's incredible. I mean, I'm very intrigued, but it's definitely seems a little more intense than I very interesting, and it can be overwhelming. I. Um, I have gone many, many years in the past without reading the newspaper. I'm actually more interested in reading the newspaper now. It kind of started during the pandemic, and I have more space for it overall. There are certainly days when and it really has less to do with the news that's being reported and more to do with my my my flow, if I'm tired, or if I've been more busy than usual, then I'll be like, yeah, no, not today, you know. But I have, you know, I have. I will admit to having on my phone apps for the SF Chronicle, The New York Times in Washington Post, I'm not advocating at all for anyone to do this or not do this. I'm just very interested and curious. And yeah, that's an easy way for me to get the information and also to leave it and to ignore it. Yeah, good point, yeah, and it's not sometimes it could because it's unpleasant. It has less to do with it being unpleasant for me at this stage. At other times, it absolutely was because it's unpleasant. Now it has more to do with me just recognizing where my nervous system is at how I'm feeling and what makes what's a wise choice for that day. Yeah, doesn't it seem so important more than ever to have some sort of meditation and or spiritual practice currently, yeah, well, I mean, I'm a believer. Yeah, we don't have to twist each other's arm here. Come on cater. I really think, yeah, it has been for, you know, my whole adult life. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Is there anything that you've come across lately, if we just let's stay or clear politics, but is there anything that you've come across recently that you've had to really kind of not wrestle on, if wrestles right word, but just like, attack or maybe that's not the right word, either come out from different angles to make sense of something. Has there been a way say again, please. I'm not sure what you mean. I guess I know it's very vague. Has there, is there an issue or an article or something in our world that you're viewing today that you've really kind of had to research a little deeper into that, through that research process, you've gained clarity. Do you know what I mean? Like sometimes I my one for me personally is I watched a show on Netflix called dairy girls, which was about Northern Ireland. And it was, it was entertaining. And then I realized, oh my gosh, I really don't know any of the history of what happened in Ireland back in the 70s with the all that stuff that was going on between the Catholics and the Protestants. And then I realized I don't even know what Protestantism is. And then I started reading about the Protestant Reformation. And then I just kind of kept going further and further. But then I hit a point where I was like, I think it makes a little more sense to me now, and I felt some clarity because I did a little homework, and I'm wondering if you had anything recently. I'm sure it'd be completely different to that. But is there anything recently that you've gotten curious about, dug in on and had a moment of clarity? Yeah, probably. But I guess what it all boils down to, really, is, you know, the Buddha was very clear. And you know, greed and aversion and confusion are really the fundamental sources of struggle, and we see that getting played out all the time, again and again and again and again, we would not have a desire to harm anyone ever if we had resolved our anger, our greed, confusion. You know, those are fear, right? So it all does, without question, very clearly, come back to our personal need for safety, our personal desire for protection and to feel loved and cared for and a part of something greater than ourselves. And sometimes people are in positions of power where they can inflict tremendous suffering upon, you know, millions of people, right, and it still comes back to their personal need for for some kind of acknowledgement, right? So I see that very clearly, and I'm not confused by that. And love that everyone you know has goodness in them, even if it's not showing up, you know. And so we can the Buddha was, so, you know, he just said, this stuff is going to happen. This is fundamental to the world. If you imagine, we would love to imagine a world without it, and we can try and imagine a world without it. We can try to create a world without it, but it's endemic to humanity and how the world functions. So that recognition certainly helps me to see. Into what is going on? Great answer. Thank you. I love that in relation to yoga, Kundalini chakras and cerebral spinal fluid in the study of it and or application of manipulation of it in cranial sacral therapy, do you see a connection? Yeah, it's such a great question. And when you wrote that I started, I had to think about it, you know. And I mean, I see it's a big question, it is. And I see I can say some things that I see what I understand, please. I see Kundalini as a completely organic force and not something to be feared. It's just natural. It's there, and it's a benevolent force. So for me, in my practice, I don't want to control it. It's just, it's like I don't do any strong breath control practices at this stage of my practice. You know, early on, maybe I did some of that, but I haven't for many years, because it just doesn't feel like it would be helpful to me. So this is letting something natural flow and manifest. It's just there. It's for our goodness, for our development. It's a wholesome, positive thing. So it isn't something to be feared, or, in my view, controlled. And I think what cranial sickle might, you know, what it can help. It can I will help with spiritual emergencies. For sure, it can help with grounding and opening and stability. And you know, so I've certainly worked with people in all of those sorts of states, you know, people who were suicidal, or people who are in a lot of distress, and which sometimes might be called like Kundalini crises, right? Spiritual emergencies, right? And so cranial sacwi can certainly help to stabilize that. It can also help with our personal growth and development in that it's just facilitating the ease of body and mind and integration. Great answer, and I like the fact that you have respect and or just a relaxation around the idea of Kundalini. That's nice, that feels that feels discomforting. It's a big, yeah, people kind of get all kind of tied and not mysterious. You know, what is it? And how do I make it, and how do I force it, and how could I control it? And I like that. You're just like, No, it's natural, and let's just relax about it. I remember I was in a bookstore, maybe it was at Kripalu ages ago, and there was a book on Kundalini, and it was like this thick book, like inches thick, and I was intrigued by it. You know, I don't think I ever read the book, but since then, my views have evolved, yes, yes. Good point. Good point where, with in relation, and if I come back a little bit to the TMJ aspect, I do clench a lot, and my dentist said, Todd, if you don't put one of these night guards on, you're not gonna have any teeth left. And so I'm like, why? I guess I am stressed out. You know, I didn't know I was I'm doing it all while I'm sleeping. I had no idea. So do you have any advice for me in relation to I'm aware that I'm clamping and then I, of course, I become aware, and then I relax, and I can just get in that kind of, it must be a nervous system thing, or just like a hyped up where I'll just like, oh, just clamp down in relation to sleep. Though. Have you come across technique beyond just putting something in between your teeth to make sure you don't wear it down that can because obviously, we're asleep, we don't know what we're doing. Is there something, is there a way to know what we're doing while we're sleeping? Yeah, yeah. It's a good question. And you know, I get this one a lot in in the workshops that I teach, TMJ, yoga and mindfulness workshops, and as you say, when we're sleeping, it's difficult to control that, which is kind of the beauty of sleep. Good point, good point. That's why we like it to shut off for a minute. Yes, sleep is a wonderful thing. We need our rest, you know, the mind needs a break, you know. So it's very common that what's unconscious during the day, rises in our sleep as well. As you know, again, draw tensions very complex. There's lots of layers to your questions. So one thing to recognize is bruxism, the grinding that can happen is also an adaptive mechanism of the body. Body. It's trying to fix something that's out of balance. So young children grind the Bruxism is natural as part of losing their baby teeth. It's part of what's going to function that's going to loosen them up. So Bruxism is a natural instinct and has a certain role to play. So there's so many factors that can come into what causes jaw tension and stress is just one, and it's one that aggravates whatever might already be there. So car accidents slip and fall, injury blows to the head. If you have a misalignment in your neck that's going to show up in your jaw every time you open and close your mouth, the fulcrum, or axis for that movement is between the top two vertebra, and that's because your jaw has the capacity to move forward and back. Yeah, if you put you can do a little experiment, if you kind of, if you sweep up your neck and then you find this point that kind of pushes out a little bit. That's the occipital bone there, and then you go back down, and you feel how it goes in a little bit. And then just there, with a very light quality, you'll feel more with a light quality of touch. So not like massage manipulation, just very light quality of touch. And open and close your mouth and see if you feel just a little tiny activation under your finger. You feel something moving there. Yeah. So that's one way you can get but Don't nod your head while you're doing it. Oh, that's why I was so profound. That's one way you can begin to experience that connection directly. That's something we recognize in cranio sac role. That's called goose theorem. It was recognized by guzei, the engineer who worked with a Dental Group back in the 1900s to understand more about this. So in yoga, that's a really important piece, the connection between neck and jaw, and it's the one of the reasons that I did not advocate for head compressive inversions if someone is working with jaw tension. So a traditional head balance, where your head is on the floor, or other head compressive inversions. I would recommend that you take a break from that if you're trying to understand your habit of jaw tension, yeah, and you can develop it. You could go back to it another time when you I mean, you can keep doing it if you want, but if you want to understand this relationship, give it a break for a little while, and then when you go back, you can feel more of what's happening. Nice. Okay, so, yeah, getting working on some passive traction. There in a younger yoga we use the ropes and the slings a lot, that can be a way to help to free up the neck. And, you know, I mean, I have a whole kind of systematic approach where we're doing what we call core actions, which are these postural alignment techniques focused on jaw, neck, sorry, jaw, shoulders, hips and feet, and then we apply that to how we do yoga poses. So it's a program that's going to bring awareness. It's not that I can, like fix it like that. It's going to bring awareness so that you can begin to develop the understanding of the patterns of tension. We all live on a continuum, a spectrum of more tense to less tense. So we can start to know our patterns, and we can start to recognize when they're getting activated, whether it's the right hip that tightens the left side, neck that gets sore, the jaw, whatever, wherever we feel those pinpoints. Then we can realize like, oh, okay, stress is developing. Can I back it down? What can I do to help myself? Can I do guided meditation? Can I do conscious relaxation? Can I go for a walk? Can I do some yoga? Nice for those of us that I have your book now, but is there a way that, do you teach online? Is there a way to take class with you, to learn that? Yeah, it's a good question. So I will be t my workshops are often hybrid, so people can join from wherever they are. I'm still setting on my fall schedule, and I'm just in the process of turning the TMJ yoga and mindfulness workshop into an online course, so that will be available on demand sometime this fall. Nice, excellent, cater. Oh my gosh, I'm so I'm so thankful to have this chance to meet you, and I really appreciate you donating your time so so we can, we can learn a little bit. And I really enjoyed having this conversation. I'm so thankful to Michael for introducing us, and I can find you on your website, which I know you said you have a new one coming out, which is going to be your name.com, so caterhi.com, and I can find you. I do follow you on Instagram. Is there anything else that? Is there a question I missed? Is there something? Is there something I should have asked you? The book's official release date is August 27 so it's available for pre order right now, directly from the publisher, Shambhala. It's on Amazon, and then it'll it'll ship to you on the 27th whoever's interested in getting it, and you can get it, of course, at your local bookstore after August. Is 27th I mean, that's really amazing. How did you get Shambala to how did you have, must have done a big jump for joy when you got that call that said you just received, you're going to get published by shamba Shambala, don't you think, I mean, that's a big deal. That's a really reputable approach them, you know? Yeah, it was like they just called you out of thin air and said, you're like, I did work for it. Like, I put a little bit of time. And it wasn't just like the universe reaching out and telling me. But still, that's so cool. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, they've been wonderful. Oh, man, wonderful publisher. I'm very happy to work with them for great things about them. Well, thank you so much. Cater. I can't wait to release this and have everybody get a chance to listen. And I do you ever travel to Florida? When's the last time you're on the East Coast? It sounds like, it sounds like you were in Massachusetts. That's still a long ways away, but it is east coast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I travel around to a variety of places. So cool. All right. Well, I hope to get a chance to meet you in person, and this has been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. Cater, yeah, take care. Thank you. Lots of fun. Thank you. Native yoga. Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com, and hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends. Rate it and review and join us next time you Oh, yeah.