Rod Stryker - The Essence of Tantra & Exploring The Four Desires

Discover the insights and transformative power of yoga and Tantra with world renowned teacher Rod Stryker. Host Todd explores Stryker's journey from his first experience at age five to his profound teachings today. Learn about the nuances of Yoga Nidra, the sacred practice of revitalizing temples, and the four desires shaping our purpose. This episode delves into the depths of meditation, relaxation, and finding balance in modern life. Perfect for those seeking a deeper understanding of yoga's spiritual and practical applications.

Visit Rod on his website: https://www.rodstryker.com/

Key Takeaways:

• The Journey of Yoga Practice: Rod Stryker recounts his introduction to yoga at a young age and how influential texts and teachers shaped his path.
• Understanding Tantra: Stryker articulates the principles of Tantra, highlighting its worldview and practices aimed at uncovering the sacred within.
• Sacred Energy and Temples: Stryker describes initiatives of reinfusing energy into sacred spaces, promoting a reciprocal relationship with these spiritual environments.
• Yoga Nidra's Importance: An in-depth look into Yoga Nidra, its stages, and why it’s crucial for addressing modern-day restlessness and achieving true relaxation.
• The Four Desires: A guide to discovering one's life purpose, balancing essential desires, and aligning them with spiritual goals.

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Chapters

• 4:38 Mastering Yoga Poses and Breath Control Over Time
• 8:18 The Value of Teacher-Student Connection in Yoga Practice
• 15:27 Understanding Tantra: Sacredness, Techniques, and Life Fulfillment |
• 20:51 The Power of Prana and Sacred Spaces |
• 27:28 The Rise and Impact of Yoga Nidra Practices
• 29:53 Challenges and Techniques of Meditation in a Distracted World
• 33:10 Understanding Yoga Nidra: Ancient Practice and Modern Misconceptions
• 41:23 The Four Stages of Yoga Nidra Explained
• 47:25 Exploring Yoga Nidra, Tantric Texts, and The Four Desires
• 54:33 Understanding the Four Desires for a Purposeful Life
• 58:40 Finding Stillness and Love Amid Life's Noise

Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin Oh, yeah. Bringing Rod Stryker to the podcast. Ah, yes! I'm so pumped. Thank you for listening. You're gonna love this one! Rod... He's got the magic. He gets it. He's been doing it for a really long time. He has a project called Tantra Yoga Alchemy. He's an author, teacher and speaker. He's a world renowned meditation teacher and yoga educator. He's written one book called The Four Desires. He has another book coming out coming out called Enlightened Sleep. He has an online program and meditation app called Sanctuary. He has nearly 40 years of teaching experience. It's also a father of four. He lives in Idaho. Check him out on his website, rodstryker.com. You'll find him on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, X.... and beyond. Rod, thank you so much. I thoroughly enjoyed this. And for those of you listening, get ready for a wonderful ride. Alright, let's begin. I'm so pleased to have this chance to meet and speak with Rod Stryker. Rod. Thank you for joining me today. How are you? Great. I'm really good and happy to be with you, Todd. Thank you so much. This is a great opportunity. I've been hearing about you. For years, I started practicing hatha yoga and around about 2000 in Yoga Journal magazine was really popular. And I saw you and Yoga Journal back then and and that was the first time I'd heard about you. So I'm just delighted to have this chance to ask you questions about your yoga journey and, and what you're up to these days. Okay, I hope it can make it interesting. It's been an interesting journey. And the conversation about it is interesting and, and partially informative. So on fire away, Todd, where would you like to start? I'm really curious what your first yoga experience was? Oh, well, that's an interesting question. I, I was five years old. And I was at my uncle's house in actually granduncle. In Philadelphia, it's not where I grew up. It's the summer I learned to ride a bike, in fact, at his house. And I remember pulling a book off the shelf and seeing this guy doing yoga postures. And it left an impression at five years old, that this guy was doing things with his body that just really spoke to me. And it seemed, you know, I think looking back, my sense was that I was seeing that someone had not just control of his body, but there was something going on a deeper level and that it left a powerful impression. So that was the first one. And then I didn't actually start doing yoga till I was 19. Amazing, you were 19? What What was the setting that you found? Do you find a yoga class? Did you start looking at a book and trying to emulate or imitate? I don't feel like I was original in any sense of it. You know, most of us come to yoga, because we think that offers us a better life or something better from life, or perhaps we've reached a point in our life, whether it's like a lower back problem, or we feeling stressed. So it's hard to imagine that 19 I was feeling stressed but I was you know, and I I had left college and my junior year, and I wasn't quite 20 yet. And I started working. And I remember being at work at a kind of employee meeting one day and one of the waitresses turned to me and said Did you know you should try yoga? And it was a little too busy to do it. So I want to, she said, Well, if you can't come to my class, then just go get light on yoga. And that was the beginning. And I don't know how many of your listeners or you yourself have read light on yoga. But the introduction to that is like about 50 pages, and like the best 50 pages, giving the most clear synthesis of what yoga is, and in a way, what it isn't and, and that just set me on fire. To be honest with you. I felt like I was not learning something. I was remembering something as I was reading it. Yeah. Even though it's my first introduction, you know, my introduction. So that lit the fire, you know, and in a matter of days, I started doing yoga in my apartment there in Denver, and, and I was forever changed to be honest with you. Well, that's cool. Did you? Do you feel like I spoke I have read his book, it is incredible. Did you just start following step by step the way he sequenced those postures? Did you does that how you basically got started? Exactly. You know, I kind of followed it. And then but you know, if if you know that book is like a seven year course, in which he just totally lays it out what yoga, what postures you're going to do for months, zero to three, three to six, six to 12, on and on until seven years. And so I think after about and the other thing he does, which is kind of really compelling for those, especially those who've kind of developed or grown up in vinyasa, his thing is, okay, do for instance, the third pose, I think, was partial Konasana. So, side angle pose, and he says hold it for 30 seconds to two minutes. So if out of the gate, you know, I was always a little bit of a zealot. So I was like, out of the gate. Okay, do this. For 30. Why not do it through otter and 22nd. Yeah. And like he started shaking. And I was the summer and it was Denver, my apartment was hot. And like, I'm standing. There were no yoga mats in those days, by the way, this was, you know, 19 v. And I was just stunned by how powerful it was, even though I wasn't moving. Yeah, that's so cool. Just resist, you're just experiencing your body's resistance and gravity. And so I quickly got some magic from it, holding it two minutes. And then within a few months of kind of really taking the graduated version of way he was describing it. I kind of wanted to see what was going on in the back in the book a little bit like, you know, what are you doing in year five? And what are you doing? You're 67. And I, you know, some of those poses were beyond my reach human at that age, and you need a lot of time to get to some leg behind head stuff. And that kind of, you know, more advanced poses. But the same person recommended I do the my yoga out of the book, said, Well, look, if you're only going to do you know, if you're really going to concentrate on poses, you just concentrate on a headstand and shoulder stand. Again, you go to the book, and he says, Okay, do headstand for I don't remember the minimum, but I think he's saying like one to two minute minimum, to as long as 3030 minutes. Yeah. So within a couple of weeks, I started doing shoulder stand for half an hour. Whoa, that's serious. That that was, that's hard. I tried. I've tried that it hurts, like all the blood coming from your toes down. And I mean, you start getting that burning kind of fiery into the digit sensation. I mean, that's a full on challenge right there. Well, and when you're speaking to is really your nervous system. You know, that's the thing that a lot of the times we think about the more advanced poses as being like really flexible, oriented, you know, requiring a great amount of flexibility. But there's another kind of way we look at the more advanced postures and what they ask you to do is stay there for longer and longer periods of time, while keeping your breath even like your as much as anything mastering your breath. And the pose is giving you leverage to master your breath in more and more stressful situations. True. So it's not necessarily only about like leg behind head, which is one way to think of more advanced poses. It's more about how stable and how long can I remain there and not be disturbed or provoked. And then it becomes like a mirror for life. And that's what was starting to happen for me. I was getting a sense like, Wow, if I can find this rhythm of steadiness in these poses, stay there. And by the way, the follow up to shoulder standing also says plow pose should be done for half the time you're in shoulder stand. So my practice became a few poses, shoulder stand for 30 minutes, plow pose for 15. And those two poses for 45 minutes. I mean, I after that my nervous system was so had reached such a deep level of healing, that I would go into Shavasana and literally float, like floated. I don't know where I went into the infinite, we'll call it that. And all of this. That's amazing. And all of this at this point is, is through the instruction of a book not from any human to human transmission of information, is that correct? 100%, right, which is pretty amazing. Because we hear all the time you have to have a teacher. And that's how information is transmitted. And clearly I in gar was transmitting his teaching through the book. But often we might think it might not be as valuable as the human to human experience. I know you have an online platform, and you've been able to communicate your teaching through that platform. What is your take, and thoughts on this whole person to person transmission? And the pros and cons of the digital and or analog version of transmission? Wow, we could we could spend a whole hour on that. I know I, maybe we can do another part two, somewhere down the road. I know we only have an hour. And I, I have so many questions for you. But let's I'm just curious. But let's go there. First there is this saying it's not as well known. But one of the things also, you're absolutely right is we hear again, again about the value of the connection between a teacher and a student. And so let's hold on to that. And definitely I want to speak to that because I had really significant influence and positive effect from having a direct teacher or teacher who actually watched me grow and could shape my practice and contribute and guide me in practice. As I was changing, my life was changing etc. But one of the sayings is the practice is the teacher not to replace the student not to replace having an actual physical teacher. But there is this experience that we have or something inside of us is lit through practice. Now, is it the most efficient way to light this kind of inner teacher inner guide inner wisdom, whatever we want to call it, you know, there's a there's a term in the tradition, it's a deja. A deja means the first guide, the primary guide, if you will, and that's internal, that I think most of the deeper teachings tell us that inside of us, our own essence is the real teacher. And at the same time, having someone outside of us who's further down the path, in their own evolution, their understanding of the practice is really instrumental. It's incredibly valuable. And not only can they see us, but they can also understand the landscape that we may be on the verge of moving through. And by the way, there's also this idea that they can transmit part of their own wisdom, their own lived experience of the practice, through voice or through touch, you know, and I'm, of course, I mean that in the in the right bang with integrity, etc. And so it's kind of invalid, you know, both are really necessary to think you can have a teacher and not practice and embody the would be misunderstanding, to think that you always need someone overseeing you was also wrong, because the teacher lives in the practice. And there is value though, in having a teacher who can tell us how do you avoid making the same mistake in your yoga? Are you doing yoga in such a way that you're continuing to grow? And in that sense, having someone outside of us is really invaluable? Amazing, and then yeah, yeah. No, great point. I'm following you I, I guess then the follow through is in you're working with students and the use of in person versus being able to offer through either online or audio or book learning. Are you just feeling like it's all good? It's all it's all working? I think most teachers are going to agree. I think I'm in on the same page with multiple teachers. Look, the reality is, there was no such thing really, I mean, I there were videos. I mean, way back when I made yoga videos with Kathy Smith in the Early days and Rodney he and Patricia Walden were some of the first yoga videos out on the market. And he and I actually met students back in the Yoga Journal days where we come together as you know, this very diffused community and suddenly all converge in a single place, and 1000 2002 and a half 1000 or 3000, yogi's all like wanting to learn, and I was meeting people who had done my video, and had never studied with a live teacher. And they were having experiences. So you can definitely and now just, you know, pandemic and the advent of zoom, it's like five years old, that I see you doing this work, Todd, where you're sharing that teachings, the actual practices online? Yes. And there's no, there's a place for it. Yeah, there's no, yeah, yeah. Well said well answered. I hear Yeah. Yeah. Well, as a teacher, you probably have this experience where it's different having people in the room. Yeah, you can transmit an experience online, just like we can, we can share our knowledge with people who are going to listen to this conversation. And he can definitely stir interest and passion and curiosity and more, let's say understanding, we could even then lead a meditation or lead a few movements before we were done, and generate an experience. But while being in the same room with people, and I think that's the advantage now that we have coming back to the rooms, is there's just a depth of experience that you don't get on your own isolated in a space, you know, you're in your own space siloed up, you know, good point. I noticed that was actually I had I had a, I can't remember who it is, this is a long time ago. So I can't tell you who it is, I think she was one of your students. And she was excited to go with you to India, to I think the way she explained it. And at this point, I was really unclear about what Tantra is. And I'm still learning every day. Like I'm trying to constantly learn more about it. So I'm like, what really is this? And so she had said, I'm going with rod to India to bring back the Shakti to the temples, to some of the old Tantra temples in India. And that blew my mind just thinking about that. Because I was thinking, how would we re infuse energy into a sacred or a structure that's been created for for spiritual practice? And then am I getting this right? Am I hitting the mark at all? Did you ever do anything like that? Yeah, yeah. No, it's quite Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Steven for reminding me about it. Because it was a significant point and point in time. There was I think she's probably talking about 2013. Maybe sounds a timeframe. Yeah. So I guess I guess the backup on my question, could you give us some Tantra for Dummies answer to what is Tantra first, and then I'd love to hear about what your mission was on that particular journey. Okay, so here goes Tantra for dummies. But first, let me just say this. Tantra is so vast that what they say about it is to understand all of it would take 33 lifetimes. So I'm still, I'm still learning too. But this has really been the heart of what I learned when I when I met a teacher in 1980. This is what I learned, I learned Tantra Yoga. And so what is Tantra, tantra is the word is it's got at least four or five meanings that are relevant, but the short version of it, it means body of knowledge. And it also is a worldview that says that beneath all of the comings and goings, good and bad, and the right and wrong and the left and right blue in the red and all of the stuff, the life and death, gain and loss behind it all the world is actually sacred, that there is a sacred maybe invisible beauty to reality. So there's a worldview that Tantra says that everything is sacred, we may not see it that way, but everything is inherently sacred. So below the surface again, there is the sacred reality and then it becomes another meaning of the word is technique it becomes about the technology that unfolds the experience of the sacred. So the Tantrics were kind of this radical departure and they still remain on the fringe of most spiritual traditions. The closest other one I can describe is Taoism. So in Taoism, for instance, it's We have Tai Chi, we have acupuncture, we have Fang sway, we have all of these different ways that we bring more enjoyment and richness and fulfillment to our life. The Tantrics were like of the mind that everyone should be able to practice men and women, not just priests. So it was a, it was a practice for householders. And how do we bring the sacred, out of the temples, and into our lives. And another aspect of Tantra says that every energy in the body is in is in is in the universe, and every energy in the universe is in our body. And the body becomes the map by which we begin to interrelate with the energy that pervades the world around us. The body is the mat. And so these were the guys who developed Awesome, so that whether modern practitioners have ever meditate, ever even ever heard of the word Tantra, they are practicing Tantric Yoga, in the sense that Asana was developed by the Tantrics, to awaken the sacred within them. And so that this vision of possibility, and we even go one step further, and say there's three things that we're after. Thereafter, number one, moksha, which is liberation or freedom in the world, didn't mean to drop your body, but to live with freedom, and ease. The second one is enjoyment, we could enjoy our lives, that as long as we weren't harming anyone, that life was meant to be lived fully. And your senses are part of your body and part of your life. So you're meant to find enjoyment in life. And the third thing, it's called ready, it's to accomplish to achieve things. So contrary is this is this extraordinary body of knowledge, that allows us to uncover the sacred within us so that we can see the sacred outside of us. And that we can, more and more become, there can be a continuity, another meaning of the word Tantra is continuity, it can be a continuous kind of sense of stepping into the temple, stepping out of the temple, and not losing our sense of connection to what really is essential. Oh, that was good. All right. Well done. Well done. I heard. Yeah, that was good. I saw it. Yes. You know, the short version of this trip to India that she described to you. You know, we don't think about it a lot. But you know, often, I want to say it's strictly an Indian tendency, it's often we go to sacred places, hoping to be touched, and hoping to take something with us. But we don't often think about going to sacred places and giving them the merits of our own practice, or love, you know, and so specific. So the sense of this is, is that temples actually over hundreds of years, not 1000s, as multitudes and multitudes of people go to them actually take from the temple, they take from the sacred sites, as opposed to actually give and build them. And so there's this concept of prana pratishtha, in his essence, giving the gift of prana back to temples to bring them back to life so that they're full of meaning and possibility and continue to thrive. Wow. Wow, I remember the moment I heard about this so distinctly that I couldn't wait to ask you about this in person because I thought oh my gosh, I actually get a chance to talk to him about this because it did it just caught me off guard. I was kinda like to do what Wow, that's Yeah. Interesting idea. Like, you're right. I like that the this concept of instead of just I'm going to hopefully, take or receive So then on that know, what if, if you right now, had a temple in your backyard slash took a trip to India to an old Tantra or tantric temple? What type of meditation or thoughts or practice or what would you do to give just simply be present in the space? or was there some sort of ritual or some idea that you tried to put into place to have this vision come to light so there's there's a system to do it, but I but we can describe it and then there's kind of as much a systematic approach to it and methodology but we could also there's a spirit what I'm about to describe, answer in answer your call. issue, and that is that you know what you're giving to it is the gift of your own practice. And really the gift of practice, in the ultimate sense is it's more than just the relief from stress and our day to day day, day to day struggles and trying to navigate world family responsibilities, all that stuff. But the gifts of practice really become this kind of treasure chest, where we're collecting our experience. That is the delight, the power, wisdom that comes from touching your own essence. So imagine now every time that's happened, whether it's been in shavasana, at the end of the practice, or in a meditation practice, or perhaps it's highlighted the next time after practice, it didn't happen in class, but you look at a sunset. And you're reminded, like, oh, that, that what's ever going on. Now, the magic that's happening now. Actually, I actually was touching on that in my practice, even though I didn't know it at the time. And so this becomes like a treasure chest a collection of them. And then of these experiences. And then, you know, we all have, maybe we all have different words for what that describes, again, could be love could be devotion, it could be revelation, rapture, you know, doesn't matter what you call it. And then you understand that the great carrier or the great mover is Prana. So if you can use or be conscious of drawing or collecting prana. And now offering some of that treasure chest of experiences outward. We can do that into a place we can do it into an object, we can do it to another person. Nice and and that's this idea of prana pratishtha. Isha meaning, like our chosen experience, and were through prana or infusing this living energy into a thing, whatever that thing is. Amazing. Well, that's Well, yeah. Great, you know, now that it's spring, spring is coming. The first year I planted a planet, the garden, I have a lovely Maratea kind of beautiful kind of statue of the Divine Mother and comes from India. She got placed a certain place I did this mantra, I thought of the treasure. And then lo and behold, you know, the garden, for me being a kind of amateur gardener just thrived with the amazing thing was the thing that thrived is this plant known as holy basil, or Tulsi, which is, interestingly enough, the plant that is said to embody the divine, the Divine Mother, so did this prayer to the divine. And lo and behold, her plant, the plant that represents her just started flourishing in the space. Wow. Very cool. Very cool. Do you? I saw I went on your website, I saw that you're offering a retreat in Nosara. Area in Costa Rica. It might be sold out already. But it looks like you go there regularly. And the retreat center looked absolutely beautiful. Hi, perched up high on the hill. I can't I can't remember the name of that. Blue spirit. Wow, that looks incredible. And I saw that you're offering combinations of meditation retreats, and also yoga nidra. retreats. So I wanted to ask you, in the realm of yoga nidra, can you speak a little bit about why you are teaching that so prevalent? Now? As a practice as a practice? What what is drawing you to yoga? Nidra? And what sort of benefits? Are you noticing teaching or facilitating yoga nidra is having on the community? Yeah, it's a great question. Listen, one of the gifts of that practice early on, the first teacher I met was yoga nidra, way back when, in 1980. He was leading I was being led through these. He was teaching at night. By the way, when I met him, he was 73. And which not too long, I'll eventually get to 73. God willing, but and his voice would be these journeys. I couldn't even tell what world I was in anymore, like 1015 minutes into these journeys. I was kind of meditating. I was kind of conscious, and then I was somewhere else. He never even called it later. I'd figure it out later. Later, I find out it was yoga nidra but he would just leave these journeys, and I kind of just kept those experiences in I didn't start teaching them until I saw a book That paralleled everything he was teaching. It turned out they had the same teacher. And the teacher was such an honor, they actually can't, kind of the modern take on yoga nidra came from such to Nanda and his main student, one of the students was kind of in such an under Saraswathi. And Manny was, they were co students. And so they both got it from Master. But in short, I began starting, began teaching it, like in 9697 98. And at the time, it was kind of Dr. Richard Miller and myself, there was almost no yoga nidra being taught in the US, people would didn't even know the name didn't even had not even heard of it. Fast forward, I started teaching it. Those days, we were I was creating cassettes, so people could, you know, listen to it at home, and that kind of you're smiling. I mean, that's how long ago wasn't a tracks, but it was still a long time ago. Do I love that era, I missed that era. It was a little bit more innocent, right? And then I started running into people who were saying, yeah, a friend of mine gave me a reproduction of your cassette, and I've been playing it for my teenager. And to answer your question as to why now and why the emphasis on it is because a couple of reasons. One is that we're all really tired. And people don't sleep. And, you know, for a lot of different reasons. And I would also make the case that the conditions have become more and more difficult to access, say, I'm going to use a Sanskrit term Samadhi. But a quietude where we're actually absorbed fully in the moment, no distraction, I would say the conditions are now in place that it's harder and harder to get to Samadhi through meditation, now, a lot I in that sense, I feel fortunate because I started meditating in 1980, even before I mean, that's a long time ago, you know, and there were life was simpler. Yeah. Now with the overstimulation, we have our minds have have undergone a lot of changes in the last 10 years. If there's measurable stuff about this, not only just about some mental health challenges, prevalence of anxiety and depression. We also noticed that people don't remember as much, we don't remember a lot. And by the way, memory or retentive powers is one of the signs that the ancient tradition said, was critical to developing a meditation practice memory. Why? Because if I meditate today, but my memory is really feeble, it's very hard for me to call what I experienced yesterday into my present experience of meditation. Now, if you're living a quiet life, it's very easy to access experience, but most of us are not. So we're not rested. There's a lot of mental health challenges getting still it's harder for us. And meditation, as opposed to yoga nidra, the way we get still is through concentration, which is again, super challenging for people in this day and age. The way including quiet through yoga, Nidra is sleep. Moreover, deep, effortlessness or relaxation. So you're systematically letting go in order to get into the experience of absorption or stillness. In meditation, to get to that same experience, you're concentrating, you're trying to do it gently, but you're still concentrating on your breath, or a mantra or a chakra or feeling or word, you're still concentrating in yoga nidra it's really the gateway of approaching the edge of deep sleep. So rather than concentrating on something, you're letting go of everything. You're at the edge of sleep, yet maintaining awareness. And so it really speaks to one the physiological need we have for more rest in this day and age and to making the state of absorption in our own essence more accessible. Okay, cool. And it's not like I say, Okay, everyone just gave up trying to meditate, your chances are done. I combination of both? Yeah, because it's relaxing. We've gone through there through letting go and meditation or adventure there through learning to connect and pay attention. And but the other thing I just want to mention in passing just the last part of the answer your question, and that is, there's a lot of yoga nidra being done now. I'm you know, not only is it not just Dr. Miller and I, but there are so much accessible yoga nidra there's now a lot of confusion about it, because we've actually done and kind of this reductionist take on it, where it's okay, if you fall asleep, it's no big deal. It's basically relaxation. It's basically sleep plus yoga kind of thing. And that's not really it. So some of the actual technology and the ancient wisdom about yoga nidra yoga nidra is actually a practice that's more than 1000 years old. I really think it's important that people who practice it, but certainly people who teach it, understand what it is, and understand what it isn't. So that's why I've emphasized not just making the practice more accessible on my app, and things like that. And really, in every event I do I practically teach yoga nidra, because I just think it helps people be more attentive to what's going on in the workshop. But also making an effort to make sure the teachers have an understanding of really what yoga nidra is meant to be or can be, versus, you know, what it is and kind of what it's been reduced to. So interesting. Do you. Have you ever had a psychotherapy session where someone has practiced hypnotherapy on you? I actually have gone years and years ago, I did try hypnosis, I think three, two or three different times. Yeah, I did. Would you make a distinction or comparison between yoga nidra and hypnosis? Yeah, there's a couple. Okay. So there's some similarity. And then there's some important distinctions. The main one is this. And that is that in hypnosis, there's an element of unconsciousness in as much as someone is guiding you through it. And someone may be making suggestions into your unconscious that you are not completely aware of as they're happening. And, you know, the, I don't know if it's still going on. But there used to be these kinds of hypnosis Acts where they were kind of entertaining, they were basically entertainment where a hypnotist hypnotherapist would get studio audience, you know, to come up, and he would hypnotize five or six people, and it had the man act like a woman and the woman act like a man or whatever it was, that's the epitome of being unconscious. So someone is giving you a suggestion. And your subconscious is now taking you along the lines of that suggestion. And the whole notion of yoga nidra is that you're super conscious, there's not that opportunity for that the overlap is deep relaxation is the way in. And by making the conscious mind more quiet. Your subconscious is more available or accessible. And, again, typically in yoga nidra, it's about expanding the subconscious so that we're now beginning to interact with the part of us that we're not aware of which is part of us that's whole and complete. We could even say eternal. Very cool. I noticed when I read so it's such an undoes book, right that he does a wonderful yoga nidra book. And I noticed that he will weave in these. He'll use religious iconography from different religious traditions. And I'm some when I've when I have utilized his yoga nidra in our studio, and I started reading them, I guess, sometimes Currently, I have this feeling of like, I want to keep secular on the sense of I don't want to infringe upon any one specific religious beliefs. And so I've tended to change that part. How, what are your thoughts on the value of in that super conscious state of yoga? Nidra? Do you weave in things that, you know, might be challenging for people to visualize if it goes against their? They're really fine. So really great question. I'm just curious how you navigate that No. So we can think of the iconography and that's the right word for it. In two ways, one is the religious association. So across as a very powerful religious Association. A six pointed star as a has has also a powerful religious association for most people. He's presenting them less in that context and more as archetypes. I or even sacred geometry? So what came first across your Christianity? 2.0? Across? Yeah, yeah. How's that? Yeah, of course, right? What came first Jewish Judaism or two triangles that overlap in that way? And it's actually that, you know, those are actually Yantra, like Yantra based ideas. Now, the challenge is that what I'm saying is essentially true. But if people's association to those icons, if you will, is religious, it may actually pull them out of any possibility of relaxing. Yeah, whether they're pro a particular one or had, let's say, they grew up with a certain, you know, Christian background, and yet it left them a scar. And now, it actually will disturb their relaxation. Yeah, I mean, so it's perfectly fine, to let them go and not include them. They're not absolutely necessary. Also, you know, Swami Satyananda Saraswati the book, it's not that it's dated, but he was teaching to a very specific audience, and they captured that wasn't like, in any way of knowing the extent to which yoga nidra would be shared, or five decades later, that it would come to the west, to the degree has, you know, yes. But, you know, I thought it might be helpful just to take a second and just explain a little bit about these distinctions. Because one of the things that his approach to yoga nidra, again, there's a lot of confusion about the idea that some people even think that he created yoga nidra, that Swami Satchidananda, created it, he did write a book. And that book did come to the west and about the 80s, late 90s, early, late 80s, early 90s. But yoga nidra, again, existed, it's in Buddhist texts, it's in tantric texts it's in its even the Mahabharata, which is five centuries before Christ. All of these mentions of yoga nidra go away, but hundreds and hundreds of years long before he ever wrote about it. And the one thing that's described again, and again, is more about the state, not about a particular methodology, a lot of styles have borrowed from his template, a lot of the way that yoga nidra practice today is that template. One of the things that's maybe helpful for a lot of people who are practicing yoga nidra, or teaching it one understand a little bit of the subtlety in it. There's actually four stages of the experience of yoga nidra. So the first one is what the way the class is going intercessions begin, which is either awareness of your breath or getting to physically relaxed, to relax the body in different cueing, different areas to stop and super beneficial for all of us. Because it's shifting us from sympathetic to parasympathetic, our minds are starting to internalize, our sensory perception is getting become more quiet, it's less X, Taro ception, which is awareness of our environment. interoception, which is what's happening inside. Aware of subtle imbalances in our breath, for example, tightness in muscles. So that's stage one, super helpful. For all we need it, especially in our lifestyle stay, right second one is this level of ideation, where we become more able to objectify our mind, where now my mind isn't something that's just all consuming. Or I'm subsumed in my identity and my moods, my feelings, my thoughts. But now I began to have this level of relaxation, where my mental activity and mental let's say, I my identity, I get some distance from it, and I view it. It's in that place, that these practices where you visualize or you bring things into your conscious awareness, like across like a skull, like a temple, like the sunset, like a mountain top, like a cloud. We all have sociation stallers things, even if we have, you know, spent a lot of time in a church, that if I see or feel across, I still have a response. The idea in that stage of yoga nidra is that we're objectifying our reaction. That makes sense. We're actually putting that into the mix, to generate the minds movement. And at the same time, divorce ourselves from what it's experiencing. Oh, that's cool. So that's really the level of objectification. So you're creating ID ideas. But you're watching how your mind plays out what's going on on the methodology of it's called Prussia where you're just letting the screen of the mind, you know, almost like you're watching cartoons watching the movie, it's just coming up on the screen. But across on there, what do you see, I see the cross and then whatever. And then there's also sensations that that we throw in all that. That's the second stage of yoga nidra. The third stage, things change. Third stage is called a Baba Protea. Baba means feeling, or concept. And I Baba means without, without feelings without concepts, and proach, it just means absorbed. So now imagine that state. Right, as you're about to fall asleep. You're, it's almost like all your concepts are just about slipping away, you know, like, just, you're just about to drift off. And all of your ideas and concepts are just like dissolving. And now you're in this right before he not off now, you're just in this place of nothingness. That's the third stage of Yogananda, your right edge between sleep and awareness. And in that stage, all your ideas, all your associations, and they are our associations, how I feel about across how I feel about skull how I feel. Now, it's all slipped away. And now we're all resting more or less in that same. No thing place. That actually is the beginning officially, of you're going to draw, what I was taught is the first two I described is the preparation. And that's why in we we use those objects to get distance from our mind. But then ultimately, the idea is to dissolve the mind. That's the third stage. And in that third stage, sorry, long answer your show. Love this. I love hearing about the mechanics, the structure, right? Yeah. So this third stage, then, again, I said is like the experience of no concepts. You know, Expedia, for stage, well, the experience of no concepts is still a concept. Even emptiness is a concept. And the fourth stage is when even the concept of emptiness or the concept or the experience of no concepts dissolves. And that fourth stage is just grace. That's truly the full flowering of yoga nidra. So if you think if at the time you're thinking you're in yoga, Nidra you're not got it, because that would have been a concept. And so that's what I that's what I learned and to be honest with you. I I was schooled as I said, my teacher was schooled by the same teacher as Swami Satyananda, Satya, Satya, excuse me, Saraswathi Satyananda Saraswati, and it was really a very busy journey. Then I learned this other system, which seemed really much more to parallel what the ancient texts talked about, which is that it is the lightest state of sleep, while simultaneously aware of one's own essence. It's like the intersection of sleep, and meditation. You can't be visualizing things and be there. You can use visualization of things to move there, but it's not the same. So what I saw this other approach, I also learned, which I lean into more in my teaching is more spacious, there's less conjuring imagery and those other elements. Oh, man, I want to come to Costa Rica. And just bliss out in some yoga nidra That sounds amazing. But black coming in may come in December. Which December that will be incredible. Oh, man. I know. It's so beautiful there. Yeah, that's amazing. I'm thank you for taking the time to detail that because I have an understanding that structure makes it makes so much more sense to me. That That makes a lot of sense. Thrilled to hear you say that thrill. Yeah. Um, no. I know some people have this. And I think in his book, he mentions that there was a student that was extremely restless but when the person when the child was falling asleep, they would either play a language or, or something of that nature that in that in that yoga nidra straight state, the potential for learning is so nice That language is could be learned. But it sounds interesting because in that level of what you're saying, like, when you're you have cogitation that there's emptiness, but you're still thinking, but if there's a state where you're not thinking how what a sponge you would be? So I guess if you if we wanted to learn something else, we'd have to have the coordination to have the teacher put that. Yeah. But read the book. But beyond that, that's amazing. Do if I, if you were to tell me a text, I could read a tantric text that I know that you would maybe want to ask me more questions to find out, well, what have I read? Or what? What am I interested in? But is there a go to texts you recommend students to pick up and read that has been really profound for you in your journey? Well, there's certainly been quite a few. And it really, we used to do this on the website, where we had a suggested reading list, and it kind of led went from beginning to advance, it should still be there, I think it's still there. So like, for instance, and I are beta, and Tantra, and in yoga, so those are, those are really the three streams of ancient knowledge that come in to play in yoga that I've taught that I have teachers really get schooled in yoga, tantra, and Ayurveda. And so, the foundational texts for that, wow. I know there's so it'd be hard, I guess, any random one that pops to mind that you think, check this one out? I love reading. And I like even if it's, I find that like the tantric texts. Well, I guess, like the Tibetan, the the Tibetan Buddhists, some of those texts are they're pretty intense, like the there's dense. Yeah, really dense. But they're also you know, Todd, they're also they're not, that's not accidental. They're actually written in a dense way. Because they wanted to, in a way, preserve the knowledge. So that the assumption was they would write what's called the Twilight language, which is like you can't you know, remember, I think in Driver's Ed, they used to say, the most dangerous time of day to drive is that transition into sunset, because not everything you see seems real or you don't see everything you think you do. And that's the way they were written written in a kind of nondescript way that initiates when understand like in the tantric, the Hatha Yoga, pretty pika, for instance, which is kind of the manual of contract coffin yoga. There's things about like cows eating their tongue and stuff like that. So that's purely symbolic. That's like, that's nothing literal that anyone would understand if they unless they understood. What's the meaning of cow? What's the tongue thing? And what's the moon thing in that reference? Therefore, sometimes storytelling is a better way to learn. Yeah, a lot of a book that's positively impacted. A lot of yoga practitioners was Autobiography of a Yogi, for example. Yes. And that's just, he's just did you read? Did you have a chance to read that? I did. Yeah, I love that one. Lighting up on the notion of, yeah, me too. I was just telling someone about it just recently. There's a book called at the 11th hour, that's almost. And it is by man I studied with in great, great depth. He's one of my teachers, and it's called at the 11th hour. And that's the story of his teacher who was a tantric master. And the 11th hour by so much name is tonight. And that's like Autobiography of a Yogi 75 years later, where you could speak to present audiences. And it's still it's like, on the one hand, quite fantastical. Like what Tantra kind of the implications of what dedicated tantric practice can do. But it's also weaving a lot of knowledge as opposed to like a text which is super dense and kind of waiting for a teacher to explain it kind of thing. Got it. Got it. Very good story. Teaching. Oh, cool. I'm so glad Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna get that right away and just start it. I was just wanting to get it. Just throw yourself your joy. You were you wrote a book called The Four desires for we don't have a whole lot of time left. For desires for dummies. And I know you Yeah, you did you did a great job with the tantra explained and like the basic minimal like this is what you need to know if you want to try to start stepping in and then I saw you offer online ways that we can join with you and and you can coach us along with the, for the for designers, I do for designers and for Dummies or just the quick version of it. In short, let me just start by saying, when it was time when I felt dedicated to write, write a book, and by then I'd already been teaching for, you know, almost 2020 years or so. A publisher asked me why, why are you writing a book like this, which just doesn't have any yoga poses in it. And I said, you know, precisely because there's not enough information that bridges the practice of yoga, with the practice of living yoga. And that's what this book is. So, in short, it's based on this Vedic principle, it's again about 3000 years old, called the poosh arta. Pollution in Seoul, our domains for the purpose of soul and so they're teaching is that you have forced for four desires and desire actually is meant when it's in alignment with your higher good, and with that inner teacher, you have desires, and they are support, the Buddha said, we have righteous desire and not righteous desire, didn't say, avoid all desire to said, stick with the righteous desire as much as you can, right. And so those four desires, briefly our dharma, which is purpose, meaning, you know, there's a seed of wanting to be the fullest version of yourself in each of us. In fact, everything in nature, has it from tiger cub to an acorn wants to be an oak tree wants to be a grown up Tiger, whatever it is, we all have that seat. So the desire to be the fullest version of yourself, and be part of and serve the greater whole of which you are apart. That's number one. That's kind of the preeminent one. It at least in the beginning, the second desire is to have the means to do that. So that's physical health, financial wherewithal, maybe a home certainly have enough to eat. And doesn't mean you have to be a billionaire. But it does mean you need the basic needs, you have to meet those needs in order to fulfill your purpose. The third desires for common which some measure of pleasure, and again, that doesn't have to be outrageous part. Partially, it's the pleasure of achieving things you want to achieve. It's also having some friendships, it's maybe seeing some beauty, some art, gardening, dance, waves, breaking, walking on the beach, having a few laughs in your life, all of us want that, that's, again, that's actually a motivating factor for us that invigorates our souls purpose, and the fourth desires for freedom. And it's not, you know, there's this one version of this idea that says, like, you know, Jeeva mukti, which is you want to let go of your body. And I would argue that's not what the ancients suggested, the ancients suggested, you want to have those three other desires, but you don't want the burden of chasing them. You don't want burdens in the process of more joy, fulfilling your purpose, and having the means to live your purpose. You want freedom, and you want to What did Christ say said, My burden is easy. My yoke is easy, My burden is light. And it's so this, yeah, that's all we want, you know, can I have pleasure, purpose, and the means to fulfill my purpose, and yet not be so burdened by the world, we want those four desires. So that was the seed of my of the book. Ultimately, though, it really requires some reflection, to understand what is our life's purpose, it's not a matter of like, picking someone else's purpose. The key to the Bhagavad Gita, which summarizes all of these teachings so beautifully says, basically, it's better to do your purpose badly than someone else's well, and that each of us were born, kind of like our own unique instrument. And there's the symphony called Creation. And we're meant to play our instrument as well as we can in order to bring more glory to creation. And that's what the process is about. And I started teaching it about 25 years ago, 2025 years ago, and after about 10 years, wrote the book about it. And it's about identifying and naming your life purpose. Identifying and naming when you're not living for your purpose, what are you living for? That's taking you away from your purpose. Because we're either we're being moved one way or another, either in the direction of fulfilling our purpose or in their direction that's not consistent with our purpose, but it's important that we name it. What's that default mechanism we go to? And then understanding how to use the resources of our mind, our body, our breath, to manifest the things that will help us achieve We have our purpose. So it's very much about organizing around key contemplative ideas, I give people exercises created a workbook companion to the book. And I would offer that at the end of it. People say, Wow, I wasn't expecting this. We didn't do any yoga poses. This is as much as anything I've ever done. Yeah. That sounds amazing. And I gotta be very honest, I did not have a chance to read it before today, and I'm definitely gonna read it. And I'm curious if you'd be open in the future to after I read it. And I reflect having coming back with a few more questions for you. On tax, that would be the best, best way to serve your audience, Todd would be is, come do it. Because I think in about a month's time, I'm actually going to offer it online again, and walk people through it. Wonderful that you could really Sir, I'm in or I'm in. Alright, I'm doing all right. Rob, what an incredible opportunity. I mean, you fought you've you've exceeded my hopes and expectations. i It's my first time to get a chance to meet and speak and hear you to be really honest, I haven't had a chance to hear you speak and so I I love your calm, thoughtful responses. And it's just it's been such a pleasure. I'm so thankful Thank you listeners for for supporting us and tuning in and and I'm Is there anything wrong that you would like to leave us with? You've given us plenty to digest and, you know, implement in our own life? And um, but I'm curious, is there anything that comes to mind that you'd like to leave us with in terms of like a little extra inspiration or some coaching? Thank you. Listen, thanks for your openness and your curiosity and the opportunity to talk about these things. Thank you, Joy to share these, because I do think they make a huge impact in people's lives, they certainly have in mind. And absolutely sense of you as well, thank you, mind, people that you're we're never done learning, we're never done learning. The last thing I would just offer is, you know, we, some years ago, someone asked, listen, if you could just do kind of a haiku, like something really short would help people. And that kind of distills your teaching down and say, you know, I think it was a I think what I came up with, was, and I think it's probably as applicable now as it was, almost 10 years ago. Stop your noise. It's still find loves, share love. And I think that's it, you know, there is we all have a wellspring of love and compassion within our hearts, as well as wisdom. But when we're in when we're stirred by the noise, our own internal noise as much as the external noise. It's hard to find, and that I really believe that love and compassion and understanding kind of embracing each other's humanity is really what the summit of these teachings lead us back to. And so I would just offer you know, that's up to each of us, is to turn to practice. Quiet or noise down, we get still remember, well, and we share. Incredible. Well done. Well done, Rod. Oh, man, you made my day. I'm already like, I gotta go drive and pick up my daughter and I'm like, I'm gonna relax now. Like I was already before I go on the conversation. I was like, my wife called me and said, You got like this amount of time to hurry up when you're done. You got to get to school, you got to pick her up. And I'm like, Dude, I'm stressed and I'm stressing. You gonna do my podcast? I'm thinking I can't wait to just get my car and cruise and chill and not stress. So thank you so much. I really enjoyed this. You're a great teacher, great speaker. And I can't wait to I mean, it's good to be on Zoom. But I do really value the the teacher student in the same room is such an incredible experience. So I started even before today, I was thinking I had this feeling I'm gonna want to go practice with Rod after this. When I took that in the website, so I can't wait. Thank you. All right. Thanks for your great, thank you so much. All right, thanks. Thank you. Native yoga podcast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what If you want more of what I can improve, and if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time