Janne Kontala ~ Exploring Bhagavad Gita's Impact on Modern Yoga Practices

In this enlightening episode, the Toddcast welcomes back Janne Kontala, an esteemed yoga scholar, to delve deeper into the profound teachings of the Bhagavad Gita. Building on their previous discussion on contemporary yoga, Janne and the host engage in a thought-provoking conversation that sheds light on the intricate layers of the Bhagavad Gita and its relevance to modern yoga practitioners.

Visit Janne on his website here: https://www.jayananda.info/23233

Key Takeaways:

• Historical Context and Relevance of the Bhagavad Gita: The Bhagavad Gita remains a cornerstone of yoga philosophy, presenting practical wisdom applicable to both ancient and modern practitioners.
• Jnana Yoga: Focuses on self-knowledge and intellectual inquiry, essential for those seeking deeper understanding through meditation and study of sacred texts.
• Karma Yoga: Offers a path for active individuals by transforming daily actions into a spiritual practice through selflessness and duty.
• Bhakti Yoga: Emphasizes devotion and personal connection to the divine, transcending mere intellectual understanding.
• Integration of Yogic Paths: The Bhagavad Gita's teachings harmonize Jnana, Karma, and Bhakti Yoga, allowing practitioners to adapt their spiritual practice to their individual nature and lifestyle.

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Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com All right, let's begin Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcas. My name is Todd McLaughlin, and I'm really pleased to bring a return guests back to the show. This is Janne Kontala. Yanne is in Finland. He is a scholar. And in this episode, we speak about the Bhagavad Gita, we take a deep dive into the Bhagavad Gita, one of the most important text that we can study and learn from as yoga practitioners. So I really hope that you enjoy this as I learned so much. I'm so excited to have this opportunity to speak with such a knowledgeable person on the subject. Please do check out Janne on his website, https://www.jayananda.info/23233 He does have an upcoming series online taught in English on the Bhagavad Gita coming up in September. So if you go to Janne's website, and you click on where it says English, and then from there, obviously you'll need that translation, I doubt you speak Finnish. And so maybe you do. Hopefully, someone Finnish friends are listening. And so with that being said, you scroll down to the bottom, and you're going to see an upcoming course. Bhagavad Gita in English zoom course on Tuesday starting in September, Learn More button, click that. Janne is the real deal. He loves it, lives it, studies it, breaths it. He is a great speaker, and teacher, I'm very honored. I can't wait for you to hear this. Let's begin. Hello and welcome. And today, I'm really excited to bring Janne Kontala back to the podcast. Janne, I've been really looking forward to this opportunity to speak with you again, I learned so much from the last time that we had conversation, it was on episode number 143. And the title is, Is Contemporary Yoga at a Dead End, I feel like we covered some really interesting subjects. And today, I get to ask you a few more questions and dive a little deeper into the Bhagavad Gita. And first of all, before I ask questions, how are you doing today? How are you feeling? I'm feeling fine. Thanks for asking. I was a little chilly last time, but now it's summertime. So I find I bet that has to play a huge role on emotional and physical health just being a cold winter versus long summer days. Yeah. And it's not only about temperature, somebody actually studied. What's the light ratio difference between the darkest and lightest day, and it's something like one to 100 Wow. So it's not only in terms of the hours, but the angle of the light is so much more intense. Now. Interesting. That's cool. Well, you know, I want to just jump right in because the Bhagavad Gita is a wonderful text. And you've spent a considerable considerable amount of time studying and writing your own commentary on the Bhagavad Gita. And you know, when I first that was the first yoga texts that I came across was Bhagavad Gita. But I know for most people when they take a yoga training, they're encouraged to study the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. And so my first question is, why do you think Baba The Gita is irrelevant, just as important, or maybe even more important for yoga practitioners and students to study. Yeah, so there are historical reasons for adopting yoga sutra as the main texts. And this history goes back maybe 130 years, Max. And I mean, there's no doubt yoga sutra is the earliest serious text that really makes it clear, we have only one focus here, which is yoga. So. So that's the historical background. But then there's also no doubt that yoga sutras a text, which is really, like, designed for people who like to spend most of their waking hours in meditation. And if not, yet, if you are only spending six times in meditation today, then Slyke means you are kind of progressing towards spending much more time. And so I think that alone makes it immediately clear that this is not the text that covers all the bases for most practitioners today. So then we got the Bhagavad Gita, which is then famously like, having a very different kind of approach. It's discussing the meditative and ascetic Yoga, you know, when you are doing yoga alone full time, years on end. So that's kind of covered. That's part of part of the UPS options that you have in your yoga, small words table, if you will. But the other options are important for most people who are really not, you know, only doing meditation alone, day in, day out. And then Bhagavad Gita, kind of you could argue, it's not only your texts, its theological texts, spiritual texts, major text in a religion, which is called Hinduism today, and it's a poetic text, your vessel tries not the poetic texts, and Bhagavad Gita is, so it's valuable from so many different points of view. But, you know, Yoga has been discussed in all of his 18 chapters to the extent that some of the traditional commentaries have chosen to call all of the 18 sectors with like one derivative of yoga, you know, this yoga or that yoga is the name of the chapter. So it kind of approach is a topic of yoga from many, many different angles, whereas yoga sutras kind of focusing on only a few angles, and they all centered around your private alone, like serious meditative practice. So yeah, nice. Good point. And just to give the listener some context, you have been, when was the first time you picked up Bhagavad Gita? How many years ago? It must have been 9092 or 9093. So one of those years, I'm not sure which one? Yeah, so it was some time ago. After that, that's the book I have read most times like, I lost count. But you know, I'm constantly reading it. Ever since I first picked it up. It's amazing. How has your evolution of understanding of the key points of the Bhagavad Gita evolved over that time? And that's a probably a big question. Because from my own experience, when I pick up a book, read it, and then 10 years later, read it again. And then another 10 years later, read it again, so much changes throughout life. What is some of the interesting discoveries you've come across in that in your relationship to the text? It's a layered text. So it's share some common ground with open sets, which tend to use expressions typical for wisdom texts paradoxes, where for instance, in the same sentence, you might be using the same word in two totally different ways. And then saying is this and it's not this you know, but in the first instance meaning something and in the second instance, meaning something else, so. So there is no contradiction, but it like on a surface level like may look like that. So there are some places in Bhagavad Gita where it's like that using a little paradoxical language to kind of align it with the world of Upanishads. But then there's a lot of straightforward wisdom, instruction about how to live a good life. And in that regard, for instance, like the word yoga when it's first thus being defined in a kind of concise way Bhagavad Gita and say Second Chapter, I think, yeah, the first definition that emerges is Yoga is the art of work. And then like only one word support, and it's saying like it's equanimity of mind in all sorts of situations, and they stood it definitely is like this is very practical, like, who is not working? And who would not be benefited for having a little more equanimity or stability in the mind? Yes. So, my first discover with with it was that this is just like the wisdom of Bhagavad Gita is like, this is mind blowing. And well, after studying it ever since I have just come to discover that person may look like a poetic work, which means it's kind of using poetic Express and and not always very precise language. But it has turned out my my studies have actually led me to the conclusion that it actually defines its own terms, but you just need to be patient and read it and reread it and study, the commentaries do realize that actually doing that is not leaving that much space for guesswork that one might add the first encounter think that, you know, everyone can read and find any number of meanings. So it's based on many different people on many different levels. But it has a very, very rich commentarial tradition. And so there are serious commentaries written by people who, practically speaking, dedicated their whole lives to understanding Bhagavad Gita. And these are some of the brightest minds in the intellectual history of India. So there's a lot to learn, and I keep on learning every day. Oh, I hear you what is one of the who sticks out in your mind right away as being one of the leaders in the commentary in India on the Bhagavad Gita leader in terms of being the earliest that has been preserved to our day, to the best of my knowledge, this Shankara you know, Shankar has particular approach to spirituality and yoga is that of extreme renunciation. So that's really, the well known Advaita Vedanta is accompanied with a lifestyle where one dedicates oneself to a lifelong celibacy at the age of 12. Usually, that option is available for male brahmanas. And so then that muscle, okay, this is sexist sticks, but it's at the same time, it's kind of closing the door. For most males, as well. It's like super demanding, like, lifelong asceticism full time, practice studying the spiritual texts doing meditation, day in day out, and that's it. And so, I believe Shankara must have recognized that, well, most people need something else as well. And then he decided to include Bhagavad Gita as one of the key texts that everyone should study. So one aspect to it is that it also speaks to beyond your gaze, you know, the ascetic, lonely, meditative Yogi's, so it definitely speaks to them as well. Then at the same time, there is this whole society where many, many people are seriously interested in spirituality, but at the same time, you know, I have a wife for kids job. So how will I, you know, walk out and go into the monastery, that's, that will be crazy. So rather bringing spirituality to the life as it unfolds, wherever you are, and Bhagavad Gita gives that sort of information. So, my heart says that's Sankara may have thought in those terms that we need something which speaks to people in general, I might be wrong. But anyway, since he decided to write commentary to that, ever since it has been kind of a subject for serious intellectual inquiry, and then after this, then we have the famous commentaries of Rama Noda and Madiba, and like that, from then on the many, many commentaries, so I haven't read all of them. Obviously not so because one of the most popular spiritual books of all time, so I don't know if it's even humanly possible to read all the main commentaries, but it's fun. That's amazing. Did you and you've written your own commentary? Correct. Yeah, I did it because I was, I had been conducting yoga teacher training since I think 2005. So it's almost 20 years now. And I was a longtime hesitant to bring in Bhagavad Gita because first of all out of kind of, I don't know, does it sound like a personal hubris to say, out of personal humility, but let me put it this way, I felt like this, too, was like, There's no way I can teach it. But then I gradually came to the realization, but I should still try because most of the people I encounter in the states to trainings are still having a life outside of their yoga mat. Yeah, so it might be potentially more beneficial than harmful to study Bhagavad Gita. And then I gave some options like the existing finished translations because doing it in Finland, and then based on the translations, I started receiving, replies to my questions like, you need to answer these questions to demonstrate that you have read the book, and understood some of it. And then I realized that, okay, the this aspect of cultural translation, where I'm thinking of one particular translation in Finnish language, which is based on dictionary, it's perfect 100% percent, like a perfect translation, there's no port, technically speaking. But still, due to the, you know, the cultural gap, the word dictionary translation has a set of connotations in the respective languages. And it's not a 100 person maps. So without commentary, I realized that people will not able to grasp the original. And so after thinking about it for some time, then I started writing my own notes for the students on my course. And then those notes gradually evolved into a full commentary. Wow. And I contacted the publisher, and they say, Yeah, we are going to publish it if you finalize it. And so that's the story behind it. Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. Yeah, that's incredible. You know, the good thing about it was that I was constantly interacting with real people. And I could see are they able to understand what I'm writing here. So it was a slow process, but I feel it was a very good one in that sense that I could immediately get feedback. Whatever you're writing, you may think it's brilliant, but nobody. I guess that's one of the challenges of the intellect, right? Like if you, you keep perfecting and working and challenging yourself intellectually, and then to be able to bridge that gap between your students and, and to bring people onto the similar page, I would imagine that is a challenge, and is so cool to think about the process of slowly, Here, read this, tell me what you think. And then finally, coming to the part where you have a book that's published, that's amazing. I think it's a little similar to I mean, I thought he was teaching yoga, right? So I'm sure it has happened more than once that you think I have now realized something about a particular person, then you try to communicate that to others, and you realize, hey, I have no idea how to communicate to someone there is to someone else, because we are so different. And then you make the fort. And when it finally dawns on you, this is the way the best way to communicate this to my students, then at that one point, your own understanding, probably has evolved as well. I don't think it's only intellectual or philosophical is I think this is kind of baked in into all yoga. So somehow sharing the knowledge of yoga is kind of the best way of amplifying it within oneself as well. Oh, great point. You know, so like, when I first came across the word, Jana, I was confused. And, and I just kind of the definition I received, if I can remember correctly, was more like, Yoga of the intellect, or, and then it was conveyed to me that like, all of all the different types of yoga, like Yana yoga of the intellect, Karma Yoga, bhakti yoga, that Jana was the most difficult that it took a very special person and a special point in their life to be able to connect to yoga through that element. You made mention that when the Bhagavad Gita the Bhagavad Gita does a good job of synthesizing these different branches. I feel like I've heard or read that Bhagavad Gita does, like really does a good job with synthesizing Yana yoga, bhakti yoga and karma yoga. To start off on those three main elements, can you shed a little bit of light on? What is beyond a yoga like from from me as like a practitioner who may be just, I do enjoy getting on my yoga mat and practicing Asana. How could I bring the wonderful, great deep tradition of Yana yoga into my modern day practice? So the word Guiana, it means knowledge. So it's knowledge yoga. So we have this idea of good Gnosis and there's agnosticism. So it's the same same road. I think this relating it, to agnosticism or ignores it. So I think it's might be a good idea, because it makes it clear as not talking about some kind of intellectual theoretical approach where somebody's sitting on a sofa and drinking red wine and reading upon his son having fire out ideas, and, you know, and then life goes on. As usual. After that, then I had my spiritual intellectual moment. And now it's time to you know, go bowling or, you know, talk talk politics with somebody gets serious with life. So, Jana yoga is, it does have an intellectual side, so I can understand how it could be attractive for somebody with intellectual inclination. But more broadly, Guiana yoga, knowledge yoga, it's about knowledge of self self knowledge, who am I? And then when you approach it this way? I mean, who is never asking that question, which means kind of asking that question and figuring out the answer would be relevant for everyone. So I think the main dividing line, when we are talking about yoga, not only as something which you do as a hobby, one hour a day, or one hour a week, or even a couple of hours a day day, but as I like, major orientation in life, then the biggest dividing line is between Karma Yoga and Guiana yoga, because Karma Yoga is action yoga, this is what you do if you have ambition, and if you are active in the world, and now we might say, Okay, I know somebody who is not very active, but this is not what it means. It means if you have a job, if you have an address, if you have hobbies, if you sometimes what's the way, then you are you up for karma yoga. And Yana yoga is always been a tiny little minority who do it like the full dose of it, it means like, one has very few ambitions and interest material materially speaking in the world, like when everyone else is going study. In the high school, the Bianna yoga type is like, this is boring, you know, everyone else is going to the party, and then you come also and it's like, oh, but I kind of like to stay at home and do my meditation. Rather, if you don't mind, you know, that kind of person. And it's always been a rare exception. Those people have already always existed and they actually feel at home in the world of leaving everything behind, maybe moving into a monastery, or then the lifestyle of a wandering ascetic. Or even if you don't formally adopt that rest of renunciate and you might just figure out hey, let me move into some zip codes in the backwoods and do my meditation and figure out how I can sustain myself with like very minimalistic approach to life. So that's what Jana yoga means in terms of lifestyle. It's like, no material and bases, which means you will have a lot of more time for private practices. Now then Jana yoga subdivides like How will you get knowledge of self and the two main approaches subdivisions, if you will, are like through like studying the sacred texts, then contemplating on the meaning which then finally translates into like, meditative realization of the nature of the pure consciousness who is doing all of this. Then the other more well known path is the path of Ashtanga Yoga, where you're still approaching you're still interested in realize knowledge of yourself but now the main means of getting there There is test, practicing how to steal the mind to make the mind a still instrument like a mirror, when you have a surface Amuro if it's moving all the time, then the picture is moving, you don't see yourself clearly. But when it's really still like a crystal clear lake water surface acts as a perfect mirror. So similar to the mind, which is usually turbulent needs to be brought into stillness, and then it can reveal the nature of the consciousness who is seeing itself as a reflection from the mirror of the mind. So that study of the texts leading to conduct lies and leading to meditation, or just you know, doing asanas and pranayama. And still in the mind, they're both leading the practice and ultimately to the same place but the starting point may look a little different. That said, I believe most Ghana, yogi's would still have done some meditative practices, maybe some asanas and Ashtanga Yoga is at least to pose to study texts is what Yeah, number four of the new Yama. So it's not that they are there is no overlap. But still, you could kind of discern these different approaches to Ghana yoga, and then interestingly, Hatha Yoga, the whole physical system is actually you could actually see hatha yoga as a sub department of Ghana yoga, because her is the traditional medieval hatha yoga and defined like, okay, prana is restless, and therefore, mind is restless, we want to bring the mind into perfect stillness, therefore, we approached it through the means of pranayama, bringing prana into stillness. So it's kind of a third option, if you will, but still the same poll making the mind still and then that should reveal the true nature of the self. Ma. That that takes a lot of time, you know, so do illustrate how much time it requires, like hotsale Pradipika, the the most well known manual, if you will, on classic Hatha Yoga, when he talks about, let's get started with pranayama. Practice. So the preliminary states, no, this is preliminary is before the actual practices. One is supposed to do three hours in the morning, three hours in the midday three hours afternoon, three hours in the midnight pranayama. You know, just to get started. So, who's got that sort of time? But I mean, if your guys all you do, yeah, then you might just okay, if this works. Why not try this and see? Wow. Great point. I mean, the thought of doing 12 hours of pranayama a day alone makes me nervous. I think we need to add a caveat for those who hear this podcast that sorry, Todd cast. So don't try this at home. But I would like to add not even try this at home with your friends. Don't try it at all. It's like, it's for selected handful few for most people, it's definitely not recommend it's dangerous. The same text says like, just as you would tame a wild animal, like step by step really carefully. Like think of it as the having a tiger in your living room? How would you approach the situation, the same care should be taken with prana. Otherwise, the prana will kill the practice. And that's a direct quotation from Hatha Yoga Pradipika. So please, everyone, don't kill yourselves. It's so funny on there, because your read I mean, I think there's this tendency to get excited about yoga. Then here, some of these, I'll use the word extreme. And I know extreme is all relative, but it sounds so extreme. I would think 99.9% of the population would go home. No way. That doesn't even sound interesting to me. But but you know that that's the level of challenge of even considering spending 12 hours a day doing anything? Yeah, beyond just their normal waking consciousness. You know, I just don't even think many people would try. But do you think the culture and the time 1000 plus years ago, there was a greater percentage of people that were contemplating taking their lives down this path? Yeah, but this is not academic yoga studies you know, with the increasing popularity of yoga In the world, and obviously academic study also follows. And sometimes there is this kind of gap, like, here's the Yoga people are doing today. And there is this yoga that was done in the past. And somehow these don't meet like today yoga is kind of sound, sound kind of watered down, everyone can do it, and nobody's doing it seriously. So my reading of the history of your guys, this is not new. It's always been the case that nobody's, you know, very few people have that kind of time in their hands. So I was just mentioning that to illustrate what it would take to take beyond a yoga path seriously, it means full time dedication, and then you first get trained under a qualified teacher. And then you would, at one point, do it alone, but Fergana yoga, to bring the practice and all the way. That's what it traditionally meant. And so that's what I meant when I said that the biggest kind of dividing line is between Karma Yoga and Yana yoga, that's related to the lifestyle, like what do you actually do in your life? And if it turns out that 12 hour pranayama, or, you know, six hour studying of texts, sitting in meditation for eight hours? Sounds like a nice idea for someone else, but not quite for me, then the answer is not you are not fit for yoga? The answer is, you just need to use another set of tools. And then that's called Karma Yoga. And then it's a third bhakti yoga, but we can talk about that later, or now. Whatever you like. Well, I'm curious if we were to remove the dividing line between Jana yoga and karma yoga, how does that? What does that look like when these two worlds collide, so to speak, in relation to this renunciant path of I'm only interested, and self-realization, nothing else leaving behind materialism? And then, like you said, with karma, and then the world of action and having ambition? How does Bhagavad Gita demonstrate? And or what allegory does it use to illustrate the way that these two can blend emerge? I can't think of any particular allegory right now. But the usual idea is that anyone ever is doing yoga, because one is suffering from ignorance, or ignorance, rather, leads to suffering. So whichever way you want to put it, but one is a fifth candidate for practicing yoga, if I realize is, I'm influenced by ignorance, I'm influenced by selfishness, I'm influenced by suffering, I would like to do something about it. So that means you are a good candidate for doing yoga. But then ignorance manifests a little differently dependent on your constitution, like your nature. So somebody who has a very active knights, then the main way ignorance manifests is by being attached to the results of the actions, you know, I'm doing something because I want to get something out of it. Obvious, the question is, well, is there some other kind of approach to action, it turns out there is and that's what Karma Yoga is there to teach. And then Guiana yoga, then there the assumption is, the person is already like, let's say 90% done with material and business, which means the mind tends to be fairly satisfied, most of the time fairly peaceful. And now, one is actually able to deal with the manifestation of ignorance in a different way. Like, how does it look when the mind is most of the time still, but sometimes there is some turbulence and then you need to analyze that is the turbulence based on thought patterns that are misplaced? Okay, then let's study the text is like, you know, taking these glasses, somebody else's glasses, let me look how the world looks. Now. Oh, it looks different, because now I have really good glasses. So borrowing from Oban is such Bhagavad Gita some of the greatest ideas about how to see the world of the greatest singers of all time, and applying that first studying it and then it becomes like a pair of glasses. You are looking at the world and it literally looks different than how it looked before. So that's one way of dealing it. Dealing with ignorance kind of replacing ignorance with knowledge first By study then by like applying it personally. And the other one would be the path of meditation like, okay, my guess restless due to ignorance, let me practice making it still. And then gradually the tendency for Restlessness will, if you follow the pattern, if you have a fit candidate for it will gradually diminish. So, the dividing line here would be like, in this scenario, karmayoga wouldn't be something you do, until you start feeling peaceful in your mind most of the time. And then at that point, it would make sense to enter the path of Jnana yoga. So in this scenario, Karma Yoga Buddha lead grad yoga practitioner in the world of Yana yoga, or Ashtanga Yoga, okay, so that's one way of looking at it. But now this is not really the synthesis that you are looking for. Right? So Bhagavad Gita also gives another option, which means like, rather than thinking of karma yoga, that let me first do that and complete that and then do something else. One can keep on doing once activities in the world, but internally, refine one's recent and seeing oneself less and less as the person who is meant to enjoy the results and bringing in the knowledge aspect that I'm actually doing this, because it's my duty, this is my way of contributing, serving the hole rather than trying to enjoy the whole. Well, so that would be like one way. I don't think there's a way to integrate where you kind of full time Guiana yogi and somehow bring in Karma Yoga, but it seems to work the other way that you kind of externally stay in the world. But internal, you'll refine your understanding, until you finally are doing every activity, totally selflessly. So like that great point. I, I feel like the first time I heard the word karma, and then it was explained, every action has a reaction. And so then I started investigating my life from the angle of like, when I stubbed my toe, it's like, Well, what did I do? Like, what why did I, I created this suffering due to some reason I'm just picking something random, like, basic like stubbing my toe, like, Why did I deserve this? What did I do to deserve this? And it's a fascinating concept really, to start to look at? And, like, what are my actions producing? To really go deep into, you know, this this appreciation of what my actions are doing? What um, how was your first introduction at karma? What did you What was your relationship? Or what is your relationship even currently, to understanding karma? I think the first introduction must have been through something other than Bhagavad Gita, because the popular notion of karma is the cosmic mirror which allows you to see what do you have done in the past? I think it's well known all over the place. And whether you use the word karma or some other word, I think the concept itself is known in I don't know a phone call, probably in all cultures that we kind of tend to reverse we so but then to get more specific, currently, like now, jumping ahead 30 years. I think this is one of those places where I feel it's really useful to know yoga sutra, to understand Bhagavad Gita, because yoga sutra has this really hairsplitting analyzes of the process of karma, like the psychology of it, and then it goes. I don't know if it's too much, but I kind of kind of I think, yeah. So let me talk talk about it a little bit. So every action leaves and two kinds of imprints, imprints, what is stored in the subconscious mind, so you don't see it? But it's there. So one of them is called karma Asha. That's the technical Sanskrit word. Karma saya means future experiences, not only in terms of mental experience, happiness and distress but also circumstances where this experience takes place in a particular kind of body. it in a particular kind of environment, and then how you feel about it. Okay. So that's called karma Asha. Then the other kind of imprint, that is stored in the subconscious mind is called Barsana. So, vasana is like how do you feel about the particular pattern of action, so that some patterns get strengthened. So, repetition is the key to all learning, but not only good ways in bad ways as well you are repeating a bad pattern and it gets kind of cemented into the system. So, from your point of view of these two results, karma Assa is not so serious because that you get the reaction at one point, and then it's dealt with, you know, yes, but the worst aspect is much more like sinister, because it's like, you have a tendency to act in a particular way. And then you kind of without even always realizing it, you repeat the same pattern, and you are enforcing and strengthening the same pattern, time after time after time. So the real villain in the story of karma as well as on us and how to get rid of them. So that's your results recycle lots of it's, I have found very, very helpful in understanding Bhagavad Gita as the things of the various kinds of yoga, because if you analyze them, from this point of view, the imprints which are stored in the subconscious mind and how to deal with them, and then all of the yoga teachings in Bhagavad Gita suddenly start making a lot of sense, because you can analyze from various angles, it's always dealing with how can I break these kinds of models and aspects based on selflessness, with keep me repeating the same mistakes and sustaining the same ignorance time after time and time? Just having you say or vocalize that process of repeating repeating actions that are sinister are not helping me and strengthening them. That's so powerful, because I mean, that's to reflect on that and to think about, what did I do yesterday? And or, you know, recently, that was that automatic? Strike strengthening of negativity, so to speak. Yeah, we are on autopilot a lot of the time. Yeah. That's so it could be a good thing as well, because yoga is also based on the same principles. So we are meant to build up new patterns by repeated practice. So we are doing that on the yoga mat. And everyone knows that by repeating a set of Surya Namaskara. So as soon as Guardiola gets familiar with them, and downward facing dog, you do it the first time after one minute, I think many people will think they will die soon. But then after years of practice, you can do it for five or 10 minutes and feel the spine. So, I mean, in the same way, there is no reason to assume that this is something which only happens on the yoga mat, there is really literally no aspect of human life where we cannot bring in the knowledge of yoga and start creating new powerful, beneficial patterns with based on knowledge, knowledge, in the sense of leading towards self realization, if we want. I think you've done a great job thus far Yamane of laying down the tracks of Yana yoga and karma yoga. Now if we start to bring in this third element, which I always find fascinating when the the number three, it seems like there's so many different philosophies and or religious principles that are founded on the dynamic of adding a third party into the equation, and we can see this obviously, when, when a child is born, you know, there's there's a male, female, and then there's a third person involved, and it just radically changes the dynamic and in my opinion, enhances it and makes it interesting. But so if we bring in a third track here, and we haven't spoke a lot about bhakti yoga, can you give me a little understanding? I have been trying to relate my first experience to hearing these words and I also as well about it was in 1992 that I first read Bhagavad Gita, and I was in Gainesville, Florida, associated with ISKCON, the Krishna Consciousness Movement, and I was immediately attracted to number one because they gave free food at the university in the hut on the grass and, you know, free vegetarian food at that point, I was like, Oh, this is heaven. And it tasted absolutely amazing. And I see folks in their robes, so to speak with, you know, the tool seed, bead necklaces, and bracelets. And I was just like, and the fascinating hair cut with, you know, little tuft of hair on the back of the head. And I just was mesmerised right off the bat, like, what is going on here. And this is coming from India. And I've always kind of I grew up with this understanding or appreciation that India had something far richer than I want to say far richer, but just that there was a history that was so beyond the American history, that I was always I was intrigued by it, I thought there has to be something there. Like if something exists for a really long period of time, there has to be something like that. It's got to be some things come out of that. So and then I heard the word bhakti. And, and then just like, obviously, the first word I think, that gets thrown into translation is devotion. And then I think there that's where I got laughed, you know, like, okay, devotion. So I have to cultivate devotion. And I think in the Krishna community, there's such a incredible amount of devotional practice in relation to say, like purshottam, and taking food and then blessing it and not eating food until it's been offered to Krishna and therefore seeing food, literal food or physical food that we eat as, like some sort of translation of potentially all energy that we take in being spiritual and or, you know, from pranayama, or however we view our intake of energy or prana. So I'm curious, where would you like to jump in on the whole topic of bhakti bhakti yoga and its relationship to the Bhagavad Gita. I think one good place to start with bhakti as yoga would be to think about, like, okay, marketing means you mentioned devotion, most like devotion to home is like I'm devoted to my family is that bhakti. So in yoga texts, Bhakti has a very specific meaning it means devotion to God. Yoga Sutra recognizes that, however, without using the word bhakti, but this clear is talking about the same thing when it's introducing the topic of espada Panda, like after explaining all of this like strenuous path, requiring a lot of renunciation and then already in the first first chapter, then it raised the question, is there some other option? And then yeah, by surrender to God is for a painter, and so or you can do it this way. So then how to do it. Bhakti yoga is broad, there are many ways how one can focus one's mind on God. And what yoga sutra thesis is by repetition of the sacred syllable on and then contemplating on its meaning. It says that Japan has been one point when they ate an Arthur amis, well you have something could also mean a meaning of something. So having an insight into the meaning, or value of being connected to God, through the sound, and then Barban that's bringing in the feeling aspect. But we may think that failing says something, some people are emotional, some people are not emotional. But when we are talking about yoga, it's not about whether you are emotional or not, is about deliberate cultivation, of favorable feeling towards God. And that's difficult for everyone. Because from a yoga point of view, we are analyzing we are here in this world in this mess, called life, sometimes undergoing a lot of suffering, and sometimes undergoing less suffering. And that's what we call happiness from your point of view. Like when you're suffering only a little bit then That's happiness because it's like after having a lot of headache then if you have just a tiny little bit left, though, what a relief. Yeah, it's a Really, that's not like a positive happiness. So like from that, I'd say, yeah. You want to say? No, I see that that was a good. Well, I mean, what I just picked up on or picked up from what you said was, if I, if I'm feeling a lot of suffering, if there's a reduction in suffering, I could equate that as happiness. And what you're potentially alluding to, is that creating a favorable feeling toward God, yeah, is a little different than just feeling a little less suffering, or it's a redirection, a redirection of of this. Yeah, the point was that we are experiencing suffering, analyzed by the yoga texts, because we are thinking we are the center of the existence. I mean, like, like, if you go externally into the street and start interviewing people are the same. Do you think you are the center of the universe, everyone would say, No. But then next morning, you wake up, I'm waking up and drinking my coffee, and eating my breakfast and going to my work and meeting my colleagues, and then going to do my exercise, and then going to my home and hanging out with my family. I mean, who is the central character in this narrative, so, so it's more psychological than philosophical or theological, but in psychological sense, everyone is thinking they occupy the central place in their own little universe. So bhakti, that's why bhakti is at silence for everyone doesn't matter if you're religious or not emotional or not. Reply replacing yourself as the center of everything, putting God in stead. That's the hard part, because you need to step out of the central place in the States. But that's also why it's so powerful. If you manage to do it, you kind of solve, like 1000 problems at one go. But this is not easy. But I think I just wanted to throw this in, because I think the notion is floating around that. So bhakti yoga, Karma Yoga is for active people younger for intellectual people, and bhakti, yoga for emotional people. So that's not really the traditional understanding at all. It's a popular understanding, which can be sometimes used to try to build bridges for people who are totally unfamiliar with the terminology. But traditional speaking, serious bhakti yoga is just as challenging as any other. But it's still according to yoga sutra is giving a hint, Bhagavad Gita is also given a hand, it still seems, there are some additional benefits, like if you feel inclination, and that's a big if, because you really need to feel for doing the yoga practice that you're doing. Because there are three components for the practice inspiration being probably the most important out of out of the three, so regularity and doing it for a long time and being inspired, dedicated to it. So I mean, how will I be dedicated to something with so feel this inclined to that's why it's good that there are so many different ways one can do yoga, but those who feel inclination, at least some openness here, maybe it's maybe just a little bit theoretically possible, there's something greater than myself in the universe. And that's the kind of opening then you can utilize it and that can develop into a kind of magnetic force, which is kind of pulling the mind out of its own force field, if you will, towards the spiritual reality. So the earliest and most important commentary to yoga sutra attributed to Vyasa, some scholars say Patanjali and Vyasa, the same person that you cannot really distinguish the sutras from the commentary, whatever the case, all the later commentary, so following Vyasa nobody ever studied yoga sutra without Vyas commentary, except for the last 50 years, but before that previous 1500 years, and normally did so. But we are saying, why does it work? Because as far as God is real, and he is interested, if somebody's kind of interested in him, he's interested in back in that person. I mean, there's not this picture that there's a kind of reality TV God who is kind of just watching but let's see what happens to this miserable creatures. Suffering and that's, that's one is having good time. I mean, the underlying idea is by the Bhagavad Gita expansive theological reason that God is referred to as a father and a mother of everyone. And, you know, having this kind of nurturing parental relationship to everyone. So it's not that God cares only about the yogi's, but then that becomes particularly interesting because from that point of from yoga point of view, the whole purpose of the whole universe is to, you know, to help us to get rehabilitated to come back to our senses, it's kind of mental as Island, and walking out, clear in the head free of disease, that would be best possible outcome. So from that point of view, that being the purpose of the universe, then the person who is kind of behind the whole show would obviously be interested if somebody voluntarily wants to get healthy. And then we also explains in his commentary, the yoga sutra, and that is for pays particular attention and helps that person to get free from ignorance because one is showing interest. I love it. That is so fascinating. Jana, I like that you're bringing all of these different angles to understanding bhakti. Because that definitely deepens my understanding. My appreciation, I love the idea, or just just even thinking, the difference between imagining a god or God, look at that poor creature down there, or, you know, just watching versus if you are interested, I'm interested. It's such a, what an interesting dynamic between those two ways of thinking, and even understanding life. That's, that's really important. So cool, man. I have a couple more questions. And I know our time is getting close. And I had a but I have to go here for certain and see, I don't know how long this will take for you to answer. You can, we can use the rest of the show on just this one. But I thought was really interesting, because I've I've really enjoyed since our last podcast, having some email, correspondence with you. And I really appreciate the time that you take when you respond to me, because you're you really, you don't you've taken a lot of time and respond to me and I love reading what you say one of the things you I'm asked you in our email conversation in preparation for this conversation was what was one of the main things that really popped out for you in Bhagavad Gita in terms of your own life development. And you had mentioned in the 12th chapter, that there's a verse that mentions that the personal and impersonal conceptions of God do not exclude one another. Yeah, and I just I know, there's a lot to talk about, around that. And, and then just, I'm gonna stop there. What what, why, why was that so important to you? What what really opened you up on that hearing that, so to give a somewhat first historical frame, it's well known in the history of religions, that there are these two powerful strands, like focus on the person or divine and to the impersonal divine or whatever you want to call it. And you cannot deny that these two have co existed since the beginning of time probably. So in some tradition, one can be more predominant than the other one, but both tend to be there. I mean, sometimes people said Buddhism is not a specimen, where you have any kind of, you know, notion of personal divine, but that's not altogether true, either. So, both strands can be found, but then there is predominance that this one is more personal oriented, this one is more impersonal, oriented, but Hinduism then is a very interesting case study. Because there you have both strands articulated in a very powerful way. And both strands have been engaged in mutual conversation, sometimes in fierce argumentation in favor of their particular points. But then again, eating dinner peacefully after the conversation is over, or, you know, agreeing with a lot but then debating one particular point. So the notion that if they saw the attorneys and it's there, that doesn't have to be a threat to my existence, let's intellectually figure out whose argument makes more sense, but there is no need to dis destroy the other on the spiritual map, if you will. So, now then, I when I started doing yoga and meditation practice, I soon discovered various impersonal approaches to meditation And then I tried them out. And then I experienced only because I saw this works, I became convinced that there is a truth behind this. I, you know, I couldn't deny my own experiences. And then I was introduced another approach to meditation more of the bhakti orientation. And then I had experienced with sames, hey, this is something else. And how can this both be true at the same time? So either one is true, and the other is false? And I was kind of in this internal struggle that what am I going to going to do with this, because I'm kind of attached to both my own experiences, confirm the value of both approaches, but somehow it seems like both kind of play through at the same time, and then I picked up Bhagavad Gita. And then it turns out in 12 chapters, one is asking this precise question that who is more absorbed in yoga, those who are into the personal or impersonal, absolute, and then Krishna explains, he gets very interesting argument, argument in favor of bhakti yoga, by the way, the personal approach, but without denying the the other option at all, you know, but both co exist. So that led me to studying deeper. And then I discovered that actually, it's not that the Absolute Truth has a personal and impersonal aspect. And that's it, the aim and that, for me, it was a big like, Revelation, because now I could kind of harmonize my own experiences. And by the way, most of the history of the world religions as well. So seeing that, hey, there's we don't have to, you know, have it in a black and white way. Either one is true, and the other is false. Both can be true, but they can be approaching the same absolute absolutes from various angles. There is this story, I think it's originally from Janie, some blind men, kind of trying to figure out the nature of the elephant and based on where they got the elephant, and they describe it differently, but they're describing the same elephant but nobody can grasp the whole elephant. Anyway, that's a parable. So what if it's like that, but then Bhagavad Gita is kind of describing both aspects of the reality. But then it's doing something else in the 15th chapter is then discussing Paramatma with the third aspect, so you can kind of analyze the absolute three aspects. Bhagavan is most personal likes Krishna, having friends and associates Arjuna amongst other things, is his friend, his yoga student as well. But this intimate friend, they have an intimate friendship. So you read Maha Bharata, they are kind of hanging out, they will like one another's company having a friendly relationship to supreme. I mean, that's far out. So that's addressed with the word Bhagavan. Then you have the parama Atma, the supreme kind of majestic, one who is overseeing the activities of everyone that's kind of closer to the east for aspects of yoga sutra. And then we have the well known Brahman impersonal, all pervading consciousness, all of these three coexist at the same time. And then it's kind of what is the yoga interested in, and then by one's interest, what one's past spiritual path will be laid out. One is deliberately cultivating a particular kind of approach, pontic particular kind of mindset accumulating yoga samskaras, related to a particular aspect of the Absolute. And then that's one, what one will ultimately realize, but it does, and then somebody else has a different kind of realization. Now, does it mean this one is right? And this one is wrong? No. But there are different kinds of realizations to the same infinite absolute Absolute Truth, which can be called with these three different terms. Yes. I, you know, you inspired me last conversation because we had our our whole podcast at the very end, you'd made mention of your scholarly work in Islamic Studies. And I was blown away. I was like, I didn't even know that and then you spend all this time teaching or you've taught Islam studies at university level. I've taught the basics of Islam a couple of times, but it's not my academic expertise, but because I thought it a couple of times, then And I suppose I know a little more about it. And compared to if I never had thought it but yes, it's not my expertise. You want to ask difficult questions of Quran then no listen to what someone else do your studio. No. And so when, when I heard that I thought, I need to study a little bit more like I don't know anything about it. And I started doing a little more investigation into the Abrahamic faiths. And then in the process, I'm currently still reading I probably should wait I finished reading it before I started talking about it, but book by a woman named Karen Armstrong called the case for God. And she really laid out a she's laying out a wonderful timeline, bird's eye view of the history of humankind's relationship to understanding religion and the evolution of this process. And which helped me to then start to contemplate what you're speaking of, after I got this email about the personal and the impersonal. And my understanding of, I feel like the first time in relation to yoga studies that I really started to get it was once the concept of Brahman and Atman. And this idea of like, what you mentioned with the like, the end like this idea that we will never be able to fully understand God in our human experience, because it's so beyond, or has such a higher capacity. And just, I don't even know if we can really put it into words, but this idea that, that from the human mind, I might never really, truly understand. And then and then almost is like, coming to peace with maybe it's okay, that I'll never truly get it. And if I, if I just relax a little bit, and be okay with the fact that I never, it's so big, that it's okay for me to never understand it. And so, there's that idea, but then, like, were you then brought into this person on it, I know, like, just from my own experience with Christianity, this idea or the like Jesus was a very personalization of, of understanding God, this attempt to now bring it down to the human level. And so when you're speaking of Arjuna, and Krishna and having this friendliness, this like, companionship and this, the joy that could come out of having personal relationship, and, and so I feel like from our previous conversation, and the more investigation I've been able to do, I'm understanding a little more now of this complexity that you're speaking of, or just the, the, the amazing quality of understanding impersonal versus personal, like it's a, it's a really fascinating thing to start to investigate, like, in my own mind, and my own body and heart of thinking, like how do I relate to the impersonal side? And, and which side do I gravitate towards? So when you had made mention of that, that was profound for you. I feel like that helped me. So I just want to thank you for even opening up this dialogue and, and probing these concepts and ideas with me, because I feel like, it's because I want to be saturated. Like I want to feel like I've, I've received what I'm looking for, and yet I'm constantly looking. And it's like I keep wavering in between this like, desire to feel like I don't need to seek anymore. But yeah, at the same time, I love seeking. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And, actually, by the way, Bhagavad Gita has its own answer to what you just said that we are human mind is limited. So how could we ever realize the unlimited? So as long as asking in the beginning of 11, Sep two, that it wouldn't be possible Krishna, that you show me your phone by which you pervade everything. And then, you know, what Krishna says to him, he says, You cannot see me with those eyes. So therefore, I will give you the eyes by which you can see me. So the point being that, yeah, our mind is limited. But then from God's point of view, making him self known to the limited being should not be a problem. I mean, it shouldn't be part of the you know, description of what it means to be God Almighty potency tends to be high on the list in all traditions. We're talking about God and omnipotent by everything except making oneself known to us. I mean, that would also not make any sense. So anyway, so that's how Bhagavad Gita deals with it. So if somebody is interested, then yeah, we are limited, but God is not. And the other thing is like, okay, maybe we cannot fully realize the absolute and that's fine, but we can still be filled with knowledge to our capacity. So Olsen is full of water and a glass is full of water. Both are full. So maybe we can be like a glass of water. Knowledge? Yes. Ha. I think we did it. Yeah. I think I think we, I think our initial goal, upon embarking on another podcast together, was I feel like, I feel like we achieved what we were aiming to do my initial goal, when writing and speaking with you ahead of time was like, let's I'd love to ask you questions, what you've learned about Bhagavad Gita and just kind of shed a little bit of light on some of the intricacies. And I love the fact that for the majority of the conversation, we never really even brought up the actual storyline of the Bhagavad Gita in relation to the way it's typically related. And I like the fact that earlier in this discussion, you mentioned the layers, and from my own experience, like the storytelling, and the kind of storyline of it would be like the first layer that I started to get into, we just start to understand, okay, there's these warring families. And here's the main hero. And here's where the dialogue between a higher power and a human being, and what that dialogue could look like. But I liked the way that you gave some of the deeper layers in relation to start into, really understand what Ghana mean, what Ghana yoga says bhakti yoga, Karma Yoga and how that relates on a on a personal level. So I hope this is I hope you listening are feeling inspired to because I know I am. I can't wait to have another conversation with Dr. Nick, because you, you definitely have taken this deep. And I really appreciate that. Thank you. Thanks, Todd. It's nice talking to you. You ask the clients of questions with, you know, it's really inspiring to think about them. And then just by having this opportunity to then reflect back to Bhagavad Gita and other texts is, I mean, it's really fulfilling. So thank you very much. Thank you. Well, um, we haven't reached the solstice yet. So I know you have a few longer days ahead of you. Before, before we start retreating. Yeah, two weeks from now is it will be. Did you notice that the full moon correlates with the solstice this year? No, I didn't know I would have been able to tell. Tell me see, is very good at figuring out whether different heavenly bodies reside. I didn't. I was. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Well, yeah. Nick, thank you so much, and I look forward to future conversation. Thank you. Thank you, Todd. Likewise native yoga Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time