Susan Marrufo - Exploring the Intersection of Yoga and Sacred Sexuality

In this episode of the Native Yoga Toddcast, host Todd McLaughlin interviews Susan Marrufo on the topics of yoga, sacred sexuality, and death.
Susan shares her personal journey and how she discovered the connection between these three subjects. She explains that yoga, for her, is a system for self-realization and direct knowledge of the truth of being.
Susan delves into the practice of self-inquiry and the importance of questioning our beliefs and identities to uncover our true nature.

Visit Susan on her website: https://www.samarasacenter.com/

Key Takeaways:

• Yoga is a system for self-realization and direct knowledge of the truth of being.
• Self-inquiry is a powerful practice that involves questioning our beliefs and identities to uncover our true nature.
• Sacred sexuality is about exploring intimacy and healing in the context of relationships, using sexual energy consciously to deepen connection and experience communion with the divine.
• Tantra encompasses both classical teachings and Neo Tantra practices, with classical Tantra focusing on a small percentage of sexual practices.
• Integrating these experiences into everyday life and relationships is essential for personal growth and spiritual development.

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Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga, and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin, I'm so happy you're here. Today I bring on to the channel. Susan Marrufo! Susan's website is https://www.samarasacenter.com/ spelled samarasacenter.com. Find her on Instagram at the same handle at @samarasa. And the title of this conversation is yoga, sx and death. And so we're going to be speaking about subjects around yoga, sacred sexuality and death. And I highly recommend that you listen to this one all the way through have a good listen to what Susan has to say she spent a lot of years practicing teaching and now leading retreat and also holding down trainings through her teachers in Los Angeles and also has an online program. So again, remember to go to her website, samarasacenter.com. And I love podcasting. I'm coming up on four year anniversary of this podcast. It is one of my most favorite things to do. I love talking and connecting with other teachers, educators in the field of yoga, bodywork meditation, it is really an honor and a privilege. And so I just want to thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Remember, you can find us at nativeyogacenter.com. And I do release an episode every single Friday. So right when you wake up on Friday morning, remember to go check out your favorite player, meaning like iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or maybe you like to watch on YouTube. And there's going to be a new episode for you every Friday. That's right. I just want to dish out some really good information for you. That's my goal. That's my intention. All right. And that's why I feel like this episode was just so amazing. I'm so happy that you're here to listen because Susan really does a great job of being thoughtful, thorough, and educated about her responses and answers to my questions. Thank you, Susan. It truly was a pleasure. All right, let's begin. I'm so excited to have the opportunity to bring Susan Marruffo here to the podcast. And Susan well first of all, I just want to ask you just to get started here like how are you feeling today? How's your day going so far? Oh my gosh. It's interesting that you asked me because I hadn't spent all day with with a toddler. Good and I don't have I don't have children of my own and days like today are reminders of why but one of my good friends I just spent the day with them. And you know this little one he's just amazing. He has my heart and and when I get home I'm exhausted so I it's

it's 7: 4:07

40pm For me I know that I'm I'm ahead of you because I'm insane. But man, it's like a whirlwind I feel like I just was in a whirlwind like Oh yeah, I'm kind of yelling out as I'm gonna calm down oh yeah cool. I'll help you as a parent myself. I think the one of the best advice we could give anybody that's not a parent is to do what you just did. Borrow a kid for Amina? Not borrow what was the right way? Say this like ask a good friend. If you can help them. Can you help me today and watch them and really get a feeling for Yeah, this is this is what you're signing up for full time full on nonstop. But that's cool. That's really great. I love hearing that. That that makes me that makes me smile but just because it is a law lot of work that, you know, I do have this question about, I wonder if it's different if it's yours, right? Like, I don't know. Yes, it I imagine that it does take still an enormous amount of patience. But I would imagine that if it was my own kid, it might be a little bit different than if, you know, I get to be the anti Yeah, and get out of there. But I don't know how it would be if it was my own. Well, I think the big differences like when your auntie and Auntie is kind of like playing grandparent, and I'm not a grandparent, but from what I understand, you know, you're giving that child back. So the time that you're with them, you're just like, really like, Okay, I'm going to try, I'm going to try to engage with you know what I mean? Short, I got a short window. This might be challenging, I'm chasing this kid all over, but I'm gonna try. Whereas a parent, it's less fun because you it doesn't matter. You know, I'm joking. I love being a parent. It is totally amazing. So but but it's you just got to be honest, it's full of it's full on? Well, I'm, that's a good answer. Thank you so much, you know, the subject matter that we're going to go down today, which I'm so excited, the title somewhere around around about yoga, sacred sexuality, and death. And when I first got your message, I, my first thought was like, Oh, that's a those are some heavy subjects, the yoga part not so well. Yoga is actually really heavy. The funny thing is that the word yoga, I think, sometimes we, we think that's a light subject, but then talking about sacred sexuality and death might be a heavy subject, but I kind of see yoga really can be even deeper and heavier, just depends on what sort of level we want to dip down in on it. But in relation to say sacred sexuality and death, sometimes, I think maybe people are gonna go, oh, gosh, I don't want to think about that today. Or I don't want to hear about sex. But then I thought, no, that's actually probably what people really want to hear about. Because it's so poignant. Like, and it's like a little bit taboo to talk about sex, it's a little bit taboo to talk about death. And I don't think it's taboo to talk about yoga, but maybe for some people it is. So with that being said, Would you agree with me? And is that why you are so focused on actually honing in on these specific topics? Well, yes, I definitely agree with you in that people really get either drawn, magnetized or repelled by the name, and the title, you know, yoga, sex and death. And I have several women, because now it's just for women, I have several several women who have come to the course and they said, the name when I heard, like, every single one of those things, yoga sex that I wanted to run. And that's actually when I knew that I should this is something that I probably that would probably benefit me. And, yeah, so it is, I think it's polarizing, I think, if you either are scared of it and run in the opposite direction, or you feel like there's definitely something in there for me. Now, in terms of, I think yoga, I agree with you also in in that for many people, the word yoga might not be so heavily loaded, like the word sex is and the word death is, but for me, they are all equally intense. And because the course actually is a curriculum that I created, that models my own personal journey. So it's something that is reflective of where I've been in what I've learned, and I gotta say, I don't think one of those cycles of my life has been easier than the other. Because it was like that. It was like, first I came to yoga, and then my yoga practice brought me to a discovery of my sexuality and practicing with sexuality. And then death kind of happened in little bit all along the way, like that, to me is inherent in yoga, and it's also inherent in sex and sexuality. So and we can talk more about what I mean about all of that, but all three of them this is it in a nutshell. This is the connection between the three of them and that's that all three and least how I have experienced that. In all three of them are portals to God, or whatever word you want to use to source To the absolute to the Divine, do pure consciousness. All of those three things are portals for me and so we just, we, we get into it and you know the sex and death and how Yoga is a portal, how sex can be used consciously in the portal. And also, death is an opportunity as well. So amazing kin just so the listener can understand the way that you are teaching. This course is one option is through your online course that you offer, which there's a link below that can check out. But then you also offer retreats, I believe you said and then there's something that you offer in California as well. Is that true? Yes, it is true. partially true. So that's me course in Los Angeles, is actually taught I have trained facilitators to teach this course. And one of the women who she's just amazing, and we've been working together now for so many years, I've trained her to teach this course. And she is the one that is now teaching yoga, sex and death in Los Angeles, the six week format in person. And I am now teaching only the in person intensive retreat. Got it? And so for anybody who is like, Okay, well I'm I want to test out the curriculum first, that all seems maybe like a little bit too much for me, or I'm just curious, I want to dip my toe in, there is an online on demand course called Yoga, sex and death basics with just the foundational concepts of what we're going to do in the in person. For anybody that feels more comfortable doing it alone in the privacy of their own home. Cool. On that note, I'm going to attempt to structure our time together relatively wisely. And first start off with the subject of yoga. And can you just share a little bit about what yoga means to you? Like, what how do you how are you? How are you getting to know yourself better through learning, yoga practices. Talk my favorite thing to talk about. Um, so when I say the word yoga, I think what I've realized is that it might be different than what most people think of when they hear the word yoga. Although I do practice Asana. And I have been for 25 years now, I, I think more of yoga as a system for Self Realization. And, you know, there's different paths of yoga. And I don't know how deep in the woods we want to, in the weeds we want to get here, but with the different paths of yoga, but I, I feel more of drawn to a path called Yana yoga, which is yoga of direct knowledge, which just means the direct experience of of who I am not something that somebody has taught me or when I've read in a book or, but it's direct knowledge. So not, not I imagined, you know, you know, all of this, but for only anybody listening, I'm not the kind of knowledge that's another mental concept, but the actual direct experience of truth, truth of being. And so one of the ways that I do that, and I've done for years is to inquire into the nature itself. I'm a, I'm a person of questions, not answers. And that's how I guide people. Because I can't ever know what's right for somebody else. But what I can do is create a space for somebody to get quiet, and fit in that question and meditate in that question of who am I? Who am I? And when I first came about that kind of yoga, the Yana yoga like Ramana Maharshi, it was just the meditation of actually sitting and asking the question, who, who am I? And listening, it's like the mind asked the question, and then the heart reveals. So it's not like you get this answer from the mind, but you sit quietly, and listen to the silence really. So after years of doing that, I was teaching that and I was you know, I think people were like, What the fuck I mean, like, what does that mean? If he wants me to just sit here, like, it's a little bit hard, you know, for the modern mind in the mind is moving so fast, and we have so many distractions. And I think that's not so relatable. That's how I found it to be trying to teach this technique of like, who am I. But that's ultimately Yana yoga is, is the coming on, done all of the things that I'm not to reveal the truth of who I am. And then I found The Work of Byron, Katie. And she's got another kind of system of questions, that's a little bit more for the mind to work with. So it's not just this one question of who am I like Ramana? Maharshi is meditation, but it's like, for quartz like, you know, is it true? Can you absolutely know that it's true? How do you react when you believe that thought? Who would you be without the thought, and then you do the turnarounds. So it's a little bit more. For a few more questions, a few more swords to cut through the the things that the ego would have you be convinced of? Yeah. And yeah. And so it's very cool. I mean, in a world where if you're trying to make a living as a yoga teacher, teaching Asana classes are what people come to expect. So I'm curious when you started teaching this method of self inquiry were you setting up on? Well, you used to you used to run a yoga studio? So would you put on the class schedule? This is a self inquiry class, or would you just call it like yoga, and then people show up with their yoga mats, ready to like, bust out some of you to Madras, Anna, and all of a sudden, you said, No, sit down, please. I want to know who you are. That's such a good question. Because, you know, I worked in in yoga studios, so many years ago, and, and the owner, we are now very good friends. But back in the day, I was teaching like death on death. And I was teaching yoga nidra was like a practice for death, because that's how I learned it. And he was like, the owner was like, maybe leave the death stuff out. And he's fair enough. But that's not an integrity for me. So I just stopped teaching it. And he's like, Okay, well, when you have your studio, and then so I then did have my own studio years later. And I did not do like, I called it mental yoga, is what I called. And we would do just like one, like one workshop a month. And I still do it to this day, I still for our members, for some are awesome members. I still do once a month, like a whole day of mental yoga, which is exactly what what you're so no, I don't think I could get I could have gotten away with that in Los Angeles. Come do yoga. And then once they get there online, okay, now everybody sit down. And but there's ways to weave it into Asana classes, you know, I wouldn't do that. Absolutely. That's so cool. You know, I really respect Ramana Maharshi, his whole everything, His books, His writings, his teachings. It's amazing, isn't it? I'm curious if I'm sure your answers to the question have evolved. I don't know that you necessarily want to try to verbalize who you now feel. Your connection to yourself is, but if, if you were to go about, say seven times asking yourself the question, Who am I? What would be an example of how like you would answer that? Like if the first one you say who am I? What's the typical like response? Either you or you've noticed your students would come back with first? Oh, well, like your hands on he's answering. Right? Like, yeah, but maybe for you. Like if I asked you I know, like, if you were if, if you were asking who am I? What would be your first answer, you would just you would say? Well, the first what comes I can tell you how it works for me, please. I sit on my cushion. And all the stories come of who I think I am. And all the in all the images of the path of the Susan who was with a toddler all day long, and the Susan who was in lived in Seville 15 years ago, and the Susan who did this and the Susan, and all of these fantasies of the future all the things that I want that I don't have and all of that stuff comes up. I mean, it's just the mind movie. I asked the question who am I? And it's just like, all of the mental images of oh, this is who You are, yes, this image, right this image imagination that I have in my own mind of, of who I think I am. And that's the mind answering the mind. And that's what happens to me a lot. And then there's some things else that happens also. When the grace just allows for it, and it's a silence, it's, it's something that a is inclusive, but also beyond that level of mind. It's, do you think when you keep whittling it down, you get to a point where words can't? Yes, absolutely. I mean, you'd be more silent or speechless, because you just there's no one there. Yeah. And that's the death time. Nice. That's the death. There we go. Yeah, that's it. So what was no one there? What was the you had this sort of realization? When was that for you? When did you have your first, for lack of a better term? I know, there's so many loaded terms. Like, sometimes you'll say the word enlightenment and someone will say I don't like the word enlightenment, I prefer awakening. And then you say the word awakening and it's kind of like, that gets knocked gets clumped into other movements, and not wanting to be like dogmatic about this whole idea of like, having some sort of self realization, and then even Self Realization, you think, oh, Paramahansa Yogananda. And then, you know, there's like this sort of somebody's own that term. And which school are we now affiliating with by saying, so I realized all that, but I'm curious. What, what? When was that for you to be? Do you have a clear? Was there a moment? Or is it been a gradual? And it's just slowly evolving? How could How could you speak about that? There was, there were some big moments for me, I'm more like, a time in my life. And then since then, it's just been a gradual undoing. But I was married, and I worked in advertising, and I lived in Dallas, Texas, and, and in I was also just drinking myself to death, basically, I was drinking so much. And, you know, it's one of those stories where it's like, Oh, I did all the things, I have all the things mazing beautiful husband, this house, the job all the thing, check, check, check. And I was just so unhappy. And I had no idea why. And so I knew that I had to do something. And I had exhausted every tool that I had at that time. So I had to do something I'd never done before. And and I left the states, and I quit my job. And I just took a big pause on my marriage. And I moved to Slovenia, Spain, which is where I find myself now 15 years later. And I took myself out of the cultural conditionings that I had built around me. I mean, the confines of that, that no one nobody did it, but me, right. But it was just like, who am I, if I'm not this person's wife, or this person, these people's daughter, or these people's boss or this person's employer, this person Sr? Like, who am I outside of all this? Who Who would I be? And what does that look like? And so I just left and went to a place that I didn't know anyone and would answer that question, Who am I? I could just give myself some space to really sit in that question. And I definitely don't say everybody has to do that. And I'm not I'm not a go do this. I'm, I get it. Everyone's on a different trip. Yeah. But but it was a time when I got was getting really into my yoga practice. And meditation practice, and it was a year of awakening and was a year and I was just having all of these experiences that I didn't have language for. I didn't have a sangha. I didn't have Yogi's in my life. I didn't. I wasn't a part of any. It was the kind of this private own little secret world that I had. And I was just but I was going with it and going deeper and deeper. And throughout that year, I kind of I just there were a lot of things transpiring and then from there I went and found a community and in Thailand and I lived in this contract community for many years. And I realized, oh my gosh, there's words for this. There's language for this. These are actual teachings that have been around for 1000s and 1000s. of years. And I think it's super cool that I got to experience it first without the trappings of the conceptual mind. And, yeah, and the things that we can do to each other. And in spiritual community, Sangha is like, you know, anything that the mind any concept the mind can use against itself. And so then that took me to the sexual exploration. And that was just a whole other. That's the part two. So on that note, then what, why, why was the sexual sexual exploration necessary? Were you learning that you had a different sexual orientation than you had assumed? Or was it more just your own personal relationship? Oh, yeah, it was, it was my own personal relationship. So just to put it into very concrete terms, so people can understand like, in the context of their own lives, I mean, I was married, I was in my 20s. And we were together for 11 years. But I had also been drinking a lot, right. And like I said, and I hadn't learned at that point in my life, how to be with myself how to feel, really, I was dissociated. And I was numbing with alcohol, and just armoring up my body, you know, just holding things in and, and yoga brought me back to my body, it was like, wow, and that year that I'm talking about, it was just so much crying. There was in my practice, every day I would move, you know, moving the body, and my body and off and on, it was just so much coming up energy and motion just flowing. And all of the things that I had been trying to suppress for so long. At that point, did you make a conscious decision to not partake in alcohol? Or were you in a meandering spot? I was in a meandering spot. I was still drinking some, but I slowed down, you know, because my husband didn't come with me. But we remained married. And I just thought, what, he wasn't around to pick up the pieces what I just ended up dead on the side of the road. And it's so I had an awareness of slowdown. And I did slow down a lot. And I was doing a lot of practice. So but every night, every now and then I go out and drink. And then when I got to Thailand, that's when it that's when it stopped. It's like, it just left me which is a whole other story. But that time in in Spain was like a Bardo. You know, it was it was like a transition. It was the wormhole that took me from this version of Susan to like, the version that I've been living now for, for the 15 years. Yes. So I was very disconnected from my own body. And therefore I couldn't really connect with my husband at the time in lovemaking in in any way. It's intimacy, really, it's about intimacy. Yoga taught me intimacy. And then it's like, okay, now how do I take this intimacy and let it translate into love making? Not just with me, but with another person? And, you know, it might sound so simple and like, Duh, but it's been a it was a life long journey of healing. To do that, yeah. It's good. It's good that you're making that connection. That's interesting. Yes, and it can continues to be but there was a lot of exploring there. Knowing that there was trauma in my body holding you know, my body was holding on to that I just had been too scared and to deal with and, and thankfully, thankfully, there was so much wisdom, you know, our nervous systems are so wise and it's like, just not now. Now's not the time. It reveals itself. When it's time and and so it did, I was ready and there was a lot of exploration and invent vestigation and experimenting that I was just ready for. And it's really about intimacy. And it's about working with learning to work with your own energy. And it's yoga really, you know, it's a conscious practice of intimacy with my whole system, body energy, emotions, mind, spirit. And then, and then the union, the dissolving, merging with another into into one, which is yoga, which is yoga aim. And it's also the same thing. You know, that merging? It's the merging that I was talking about the death of like, there's no one there. And same thing with sexuality. It's just dissolving into love. Really? That's what yoga is. That's what Texas that's what death is. Yes. Okay, so I'll pause. No, no, you're doing great. You're doing great. Don't Don't stop. Do you need another question? I'll throw. I'll throw another one. I thought you were about to say something. Okay, I will. I will. I will. I will. I'll throw in. I'll throw something in here. Okay. Okay. So then, what I've, what I'm noticing is that there's this fascination in the West, where if someone has an, let's say, an over sexualized sort of Persona, where all they can do is like, I need sex, I need sex, I need sex. And then they hear like Tantra, and then they attach this idea that, Oh, well, I saw some book called Kama Sutra, someone told me that was a tantric yoga practice, and therefore Tantra equals sex. And then they kind of put this word into the it only means sacks. But then if we study with true Tantrics, via, say, the Vajrayana path of the Tibetan Buddhist or if we investigate some of the different like the tantric paths in northern India, that sex was just one way to be a part of the world and accept the world and not try to, like hide from it, or renounce from it, renounce from it. So then I'm curious, what has been your journey in relation to your unfolding of understanding Tantra? What a journey. So I want to back up and say, you know, I went to go live in a tantric community in Thailand. And I was there for many years on and off, I would spend half the year in that community and the other half in India studying with my teacher at the time, Prem Baba. And so that's how I spent those years. And at the time, I was hold on before you go any further some years where it was prim Baba, located where Rishikesh you would have we would have a season every year so he wasn't living there all year long, but he would come for the season and the whole Sangha would go to the go to Russia cache. And the only season where was the group that you lived with in Thailand? Which location? It was in Copenhagen? Whoo. I love Copain young I studied with someone in Rolf now as a car and coupon young over at Coase on the you know, he got to take a bow and he took another boat. Hard why Nam? We stayed at hudway Nam. Does that ring a bell at the sanctuary? The sanctuary? Yeah, the sanctuary? Was the beach, just one beach over from the sanctuary? Where were you on coping? And when you were in that community? Was it where the boat drops you off? Or was it did you have to take another couple of different boat rides you can take to get further and further out? I'm curious. Well, no, so you just take a boat to cope on gone, you take the ferry, like you fly into customers, you take a ferry to cope on gone, and then you get on your motorbike or scooter and then you just ride into your bungalow. So that's that's how it was. Isn't that amazing, though? Isn't that do you? What kind of memories do you have of that? I mean, I have the best memories of hanging out there. I was only there for a month. Like maybe sounds like I'm really curious to hear about your experience with this community. So I'm just going to stop here and let you keep talking. But I'd like to hear like was it a good experience? Was it a little iffy? What was your What was your vibe or your thoughts? This is a lot to process and I think, please, please, it's part of a nether. Let's see how this goes. Another podcast. Another discussion, Amy. I mean, I think it really is because it's been years of processing that time of my life. Because at the time it was a place where people went to transgress really and to explore or boundaries and pushing past boundaries and doing rituals. Okay, but I do want to say that there was so much being taught there under this huge umbrella of Tantra, classical teachings of Tantra, as well as Neo Tantra teachings. And it wasn't the separation was not distinguished in that community. So it was just kind of all thrown together. And I thought, oh, all of this and the Tantra. And, you know, being on this path long enough, I began to come across scholars contract scholars of the different lineages, and I realized, okay, this is, this is not all Contra. There is some contra here, but it really was about sifting through and getting my own education and not just getting fed what somebody was teaching. To me. That being said, so I always in the things that I say, with students, like I make a very clear, I think it's important, and it feels responsible to me to make a very clear distinction. There's Contra and then there's Neo Tantra, and in the teachings of classical Tantra, sexuality is such a very small percentage. I mean, it's tiny. And, you know, when you get to the region on a Bhairava, tantra and barely mentioned. So, I mean, I had a teacher, I mean, he's still a teacher, I haven't really studied with him in a while, but Christopher Hareesh Wallace, I'm not sure if you're aware of him, yes. Okay. So he came over to Soma rasa at one point, and he was teaching some things there, no way. But he, I think he's a, he's a great contemporary, because he's a scholar, slash practitioner. And I've learned a lot, I've really learned a lot from Hareesh. So I think it could point to your listeners, like, if you're interested in classical yoga, tantra yoga, then he's a good place to start. And he's got the book Tantra illuminated, that I think that's where I send all of my students. So that being said, there was a lot of there was a lot of Neo tantric sexual practices happening, that I'm so grateful for. That really, I went into consciously, and and there was so much healing to be found there. And so I'm, I'm up for it. I'm on board for it. And it's like, and let's just call it sacred sexuality. Like, we don't have to call it Tantra Yoga, because to me, it's not. You know, if we're going to a very specific set of teachings, which classical yoga is there are very, there's view in practice, right. And there's a very specific set of practices that are allocated to the classical tradition of Tantra. And then there's Neo Tantra, and that's a different thing. Yeah. Would you agree that maybe Neo Tantra is slightly more culturally appropriated, as opposed to the classical Tantra? Is do you think classical Tantra is tongue tricks, I would say that Neo Tantra is a a way that Westerners have just milked out what they wanted out of the classical Tantra and is that I don't like all other stuff. That stuff's not as fun as this stuff. Let's just like, take the part that we want to be obsessive about. Do does that. Am I Am I do some sound right? Or? No, I know, I hear Mark. You know, I just think I'm gonna it's zoomed out view. Yeah. But everyone is going to have an opinion and ideas about it ever. Good. Good point. I know we're trying to tiptoe and dance around like it's, um, whatever it whatever. I just try it, you know, this, this getting very attached to the way things should be and the way things are. It's like, I mean, this is what this is what it is. And I also see what you're saying because it is it seems that we are a very sexually obsessed and repressed and suppressed society. Which is why sex is cells and where we are or sex obsessed, and so on. Um, it's easy to sell something by putting this word contra on it. Like, I don't know, I don't I just kind of I don't I think yoga sex and death. I don't call it Yeah, contract. That's smart. I agree with you on that. That way you can represent it in a way that you feel is authentic to you without saying, I'm now representing all times across this of humanity in a millennia. Yeah. Smart. Yes. Smart. I like that you're being as thoughtful as you are. But at the same time, I just want to give you a little bit of credit for it does take some nerve to, if we're repressed to be willing to try something that isn't that we've been telling ourselves, we should never do. Do you know what I mean? Is that makes sense? Like, I mean, yeah. It's just like, What do you value? What's driving you? And I was saying, I want I want a truth. And I was saying, I wanted intimacy. And so I was willing to do to experiment and put myself in practices and challenges. If I thought that it would get me closer to either one of those things. And it's like this, most of us say we want intimacy. Right. I think most people, if you ask them would say, yes, I want love. And yes, I want intimacy. But then it's terrifying at the same time, because we're so seduced and intoxicated with our own ideas of what's right and wrong, and how people should be and shouldn't be. Yeah. And so it means Okay, are you ready to question those ideas to question your sacred belief? The question, all of the things that you think you know, for sure, I heard this quote the other day that said, the, I know mind is a mind of poverty. And it just blew me away. And that's I know, mind is a mind of poverty, not necessarily my mind is poverty stricken. But what saying that the nature of mind is to know poverty? Can you sit to help me understand what Yes, yes. The I know, mind meaning that state of mind. Mind. I know I got it. No, I see. Right? Yep. I know, for sure. I know. Yeah. Got it. I'm attached to this concept. I'm attached to this identity. Right. And the minute you think, you know, something, you're dead in the water. It's like that's, that's the poverty. Yes. Right. Because it means you're not open to the abundance of reality as it is. Because there's this obscuration? Yes, that just comes and we can't see clearly the richness of reality as it is, instead, we've got to make a story about it, which is innocent and the way of it, it's human to do it. And it's just about waking up to it. Yeah. So that I know mind, right. And in relate, I mean, I know for me, when I'm in relationship, oh, it comes and it's like, Oh, he did not talk to me that way. Or, he did not just leave this mess for me to pick up or, you know, on and on and on and on the list goes all of our complaints about and judgments about the other person. And I think when you get the closer you get to somebody, and this is something we deal a lot with in yoga, sex and death is learning to identify those protective. Those ways that we protect ourselves from intimacy, the intimacy that we say that we want, really, there's defense mechanisms that come up because it's, it's scary, that I might lose ground. Right? If I, if I'm not this person who knows like you're this is wrong, and I'm not you shouldn't treat me that way. And all of these things are you willing to lose ground and to truly see another? And in order to do that, it's like I practice on myself. All the parts that I wanted to zone and cut out and shame myself for and it's like, can I be with them? And can I hold them in tender loving kindness and then I'll know what it's like to do it and to try it with another person. Yeah. That's a good point. I like the fact that you're even pointing in the direction that most people, myself included, would think that if I was practicing sacred sexuality by myself, that would be masturbation. But you're not even really alluding to the sexual act itself, you're more focusing on the intimacy of really looking at the sides of yourself that you don't, that you want to repress. And being intimate with that, which is really an interesting, that's a that would be true Tantra, to me, that are at least my understanding of what I've been instructed as true Tantra to be, but you know what I mean, like that, that's kind of cool. I like that. Totally. I mean, the only second death is all the bodies, right? That, like, you know, the the will, these are the ones that we work with the physical body, the energy body, the emotional body, the mental body, the spiritual body, all multi dimensional self, right, we all have a lot of different parts. It's a whole system. I'm not just physical body, Susan. And so we work on the sexual stuff on all of the different levels, like okay, let's talk about what we're talking about right now. Really, the spiritual, and the emotional and the mental. And then there's also energetic practices that we do in the yoga sex and death with how to be intimate with your own energy and how to use it to to have amazing experiences and communion with the divine, the merging energetically and also with the physical body, like the actual How do I become anom on a physical level? And so we go to all the levels in yoga effects in depth, it's not Yeah, because to me that holistic healing Yeah, yeah. I can see the correlation between yoga and death, because I feel like I've because if you start reading about, like, Buddha's teachings, or even Bhagavad Gita teachings in relation to if you start starting to try to come up with ideas about what happens after my death, that type of thing, and is there an afterlife? Or is there nothingness or emptiness or, and I can see the but but sacred sexuality and death. That's where I'm excited to hear what you're going to say. Because I guess I would always I would most often think of sexuality would be, the outcome would be children, procreation, life, continuation of life. Now, obviously, if there's a life, there has to be a death. So we can acknowledge life without acknowledging death. But I'm just curious, at what level you are connecting sacred sexuality with death. Not that you Well, not that you have to but I'd love. I'd love to hear if you have you. Can you draw a line? Can you draw a line from one to the other, and then reason how, why you can do that line, why you can make that connection. I can actually do a literal line. From the second chakra up to the heart chakra. It's like up the line of the spine, right? And goon Illini just rising up. And that energy, you know, as it rises up, it's like an annihilation. It's like the obliteration it's the merging that we're talking about. So I'm getting an we're talking energetic level, I guess right now, that's where we're going, it seems. So it literally is, like, when this energy starts to rise up, from what we'll call the second chakra up to the heart. It's unconsciously for a lot of people. So this isn't something that most people are walking around with. Oh my god, this is so fucking scary, right? When they're about to have this orgasm. It's more like this unconscious. I'm terrified because it's a dissolving, it's a murder, it's a losing of yourself. And that not only happens in the actual act of lovemaking, but it can happen just with your partner while you're together close talking, it's like energy starts to rise. And so what happens for a lot of people is unconsciously they will create problems for themselves. They'll find issues with their partner and they'll say oh, not the one and or I need to be free or this person might be better for me or and on and on and on. It goes and all of these patterns and And we have no idea why we're repeating the same pattern when the same kind of person. But just on an energetic Thank you said line. My my image went to that. It's an actual thing that happens energetically when sexual energy begins to rise up underneath the heart. There's like a fear of death. You know, the French call orgasm. The little lip petite more is what they call it. Because an orgasm is a moment for most people a moment or two of no mind. And it's that formless place all the problems that you've been having all day, like all of the things of the past and the future that you're worrying about. Everything just disappears in the moment of an orgasm, because it's the death. It's the merging. And in Neo tantric practices, you learn to, okay, well, let's play with that. Let's consciously work with that if there's a moment of no mind, which is what yoga, what we practice in yoga, how can we bring that into this love making experience consciously? Like how do we do it with awareness and practice together. And so two people come together to dissolve into the heart. And you can streak and learn to stretch out that moment of orgasm into a more meditative orgasmic state that can last a lot longer. So wear that state of, of bliss, we can call it I usually tend to like to stay away from these words like, bliss. But shortcut bliss, there's this equanimity. It's a particular state that you can practice with. Yeah, and, and it's not the it's not like and then you're enlightened, then then, you know, it's like, okay, it's a it's an experience. And then, and then it's over. Just like everything, you know, everything ends it ends. And now how do you go back to your two year old toddler and bring that into the everyday nitty gritty of life? And that's really the idea that I am here for? Yes, that's cool. Well, sad, good answer. I didn't expect that to be an easy answer. But that was well said. Very good. That made me think this hopefully doesn't sound strange, but then we could, based on what you said, see the the big death, the actual moment of when we truly let go? That's like the big orgasm. So if I could, somehow Yeah, I could somehow instead of fear my death, because I don't fear orgasm. I look forward to that. Right. I'm not fearing it. But maybe but it's interesting that you're saying that there are situations Andrew yourself and maybe I'm not looking at something so perhaps Perhaps I do have fear around it that I'm unaware of but do is it do you would either do you come across situations where people are fearful of orgasm because of their fear of death that there's a connection between know how it manifests is more of like a problems in relationship that most people have. And you know, people don't teach this stuff like I I didn't know any of them. And then I just really got deep into this work many years ago with my teacher in India, it's psychospiritual work if data work is another way that to say it was that were just said data work. Oh, Shadow Work, and they said data and I'm like, oh data, we are analyzing data. There's a lot of data to analyze. But yeah, it's just like looking at the stuff that I've been avoiding, and letting myself feel it and expanding my energetic container to fit with it and allow myself to feel it and that's the Yoga also. So where were where was I? Where were we here? We were just traversing the three main aspects of your work yoga, we, we spoke about sexuality. Then we went to death. We're drawing a line from Sacred sexuality to death. We mentioned the big letting go. Oh, yeah, right. Should you fear about? Right? Right? Yeah, yes, that's where we were, that's where I was. So it manifests in like, very day to day. Experiences like relationship problems. And that the most people that come to me, that's where we're at, it's like, they just want to have a better relationship with their partner. They're not like, they're not saying I'm afraid of, I'm afraid to merge, I'm afraid of death, I'm afraid of dissolving into intimacy with my husband, like, people aren't really saying that, or with my partner. It's, it's because it's so unconscious. That's why I brought up the shadow work. So for anybody listening, that might not know, data work is basically just bringing to light the things that are not in the light, they're in the shadow of the unconscious. So we're not aware of it. A lot of us were just rolling around in our relating in our relationships, thinking, Yeah, I've healed all my childhood trauma and wounds. And I, you know, what I tell my students is like, you know, one way to tell if you've healed all of your wounds is like, there's no problems in your relationship. And it's just like, the flow. And I don't know, one person, a relationship like that. And so myself included, by the way, so I'm not sitting here selling myself. It's like, oh, I don't know. It's so it's a, it's just a process, right? It's, yeah, of looking. And really getting into the things that we're believing the stories that we have, the things that we carry, unconsciously, and so that you can stop repeating the patterns that that you just can't figure out, like, why am I why does this keep happening to me? Why? Why do I keep doing this? Why do I keep dating the same person with a different face and name and why, you know, a lot of it is unconscious. And so yo effect and death is just very specifically curated and designed to help people see their blind spots. Yeah. Right. It's hard to do with unconscious, unconscious. Yeah. Because you're making me think now that why? Why would this be a difficult subject? And if I were to try to answer why, my initial reaction, when I saw the subject matter was like, oh, is because I was raised Catholic, and there was a lot of anti sex rhetoric in that religious ideology. And it was very repressive. It was very, like, it's, you should feel shame about it. You should be you know, just don't. And then the weird and then we won't even go into the whole alter bore LM law element, you know, and all that stuff that goes down in that whole scene, which is just even more bizarre. So yeah, that's what you call a shadow of a shadow of a religion. Shadow aspect. Interesting. The religious element is what cast that initial shadow. Oh, well, I don't. I don't, I'm just I'm saying any group, any organization, any religion. Anytime you get a bunch of people together, there's going to be the shadow, the distortion, the the things like you, you know, I thought you were alluding to in the Catholic Church, you know, what was happening in the Catholic Church? And because it's so suppressed? Yeah. So surprised. And so it, it comes out in a distorted way, but unconsciously. So that is the effect on a group scale, a religious scale of what happens when people don't address their own individual personal scatto the things that we want to hold on, you know, not not the about ourselves. Yeah. Good point. Wow. Very cool. Yeah. Very cool. So then you made mention now it makes sense to me that your retreats, you said you work with women only. That makes sense to me. I would imagine if you tried to do mixed sex retreats, it would turn it could turn in to something maybe a lot different. Can you try what you can tell me? I tried once. It's been a journey with me and teaching about sexuality. You know, I was at one point in teaching both women and men and then it went to all women and then I thought, maybe I'll try it again. And I had a co lead who I thought could also really hold a very strong container with me. And we would separate sometimes, and the guys would go with it guys and the women would go with the women. So this particular this retreat is specifically for male bodies and female bodies. And because there's there's anatomical things that you know, that we do. In the retreat, there's no nudity. Okay, I don't want to freak anybody out. But um, so he would go with a man and I would go with the women. And it was it's just so different. It's just such a different, understood. field. And I just felt like, you know, I think for what I'm doing. I think women all women, for now is what is suiting me aback. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. You're honoring what you're figuring out? You're figuring it out? What works? What works better? For you? Yeah, not? Yeah. Well, yeah, because I, I, I'm very protective of the field that we that we have, and you have a second step. It's a very strong field. And I know that I've got to take care of myself to kind of hold that field and be at the center of it. So if everything ripples out from here, and so I've just got to really stay in integrity and stay in alignment with what I feel is right for me, so that the rippling can be your motive. You know, have you had any experiences where you went, Oh, this is out of my, this is outside of my control? Or, Oh, I'm going a little deeper than I wanted to get. How does that happen? Or is there is there a way to navigate this when you're in a group like this, and you're trying to teach a subject like this where, what my view would be of where it could go a little bit maybe sideways? Does it almost protect? Is it protected by the simple fact that if your initial integrity is or your initial intention is that I want the safety of all participants, the it's or the maybe safety isn't the right word, like I care so much about the people are choosing to come and study with me that I value that so much that that intention is so strong that even if something does go a little uncomfortable and hard to handle or deal with that, that that intention ultimately makes everything alright, in the end. Does that Does that even make sense? Yes, I absolutely it makes sense. Especially from sitting where I'm sitting from which is leading, having led many groups at this point, through some heavy stuff. It does get intense. And like I say, I guess I would imagine, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna listen, I'm sorry, I want to hear what you're gonna say. Um, I can't say I can remember a time when I was believing or thinking this is Oh, no. No, but it there have been some very strong things that have happened. And I'm want to say how to how to put this I think it's the years of practicing yoga and meditation. You know, I have been also studying in trauma courses for the past few years. And the deeper I get into the study of trauma for me, it's like, this is yoga. Really, this is the way that I have no yoga for all of these years that I've been practicing yoga. And I just from a different a different way to say it a different perspective. But I'm so I believe that all of the the practice that I've done allows for an accessing of stillness something that maybe you use the word protects or but it's it's just like, the heart, the heart. Yeah. All inclusive and, and I think that presence if what is always needed, only needed ever needed, and it does seem to just Protect, I guess I don't know if it's about protection. Yeah. But it is. I see what you're saying. Because it's so I guess. Yeah. Yeah, good answer. And I love the fact that you're delicately answering it with thoughtful consideration for each word. Because there is something about if the intention is really clear, even when things get very wobbly. That intention somehow fixes the wobble, if we stay with the process long enough, like if we're willing to really just hang in there and be present a little bit longer. I guess my, the reason that question came up is because I was thinking, and I'm glad you brought up trauma work in relation to sexual abuse trauma, and if somebody maybe is unaware that they were sexually abused, because they have a repressed memory of it, they think, wow, I really want to go and somehow figure out why I'm having challenges with intimacy, they go to an event, and all of a sudden, all this memory comes back. And then Whoa, because when people when repressed trauma comes up, it can get really like physical, it can get emotional, people can be screaming, the yelling, having all sorts of like, radical sort of reactions to that. And so that's where I guess my questioning was as a facilitator, as you being a facilitator. Whoa, that's that takes some serious Kahunas to go there with folks and to be willing to open into that space. And so I really applaud that, I think that it takes a lot of like you said, I guess you've done you've been working on this for a long time, and you've been doing the work yourself. So that's why you're willing to go into the trench with others then, and trust that you can now help them navigate out of that trench again. You know, I trust something outside of me, it's like sometimes what, you know, when I get in there in that room, it's like, it's not Susan, really, it's there's just something moving through me. And I've experienced it so much now that I just trust it. And, and also, there are very practical things that I do. Like, it's very small groups that I take, because, you know, the biggest group I've taken in the retreat is 10. And it was a lot for me. And that's when I felt my okay, this energetically. So I normally take 889 women, and I speak to them beforehand, we have we meet before usually, honestly taught, it's most repeaters. It's like every retreat, half of it, there's not tons of spaces, and then half of them are repeaters. And so that's a small group of people maybe that I haven't ever met before. And then we meet and I go, I tell them, what's happening, what we're going to do to inform them and lower the levels of uncertainty and hopefully, anxiety and it's so it's conscious, you know, if there's things that I do to really inform everyone, make sure it's the right fit, that I can feel the other person out, and that they can feel me out and that they know what they're getting into. And also I give them tool in the retreat like of how to handle that's what the retreat is how to how to expand that energetic container to hold everything that we're working with. So hopefully, they're well equipped. And also, I encourage the therapy because it's happened, you know, several times, that this example that you gave, it's happened and it's like, I'm all for, for the getting some therapy to go along with all of this. And then we have, I have a membership and i i give it for free a month after the retreat so they can continue to integrate in community and in Sangha all there's, there's post care, there's pre care, there's the care during the retreat, so it's all specifically designed to just hold a space. You know, this is so fascinating. Thank you so much. I really love I love having me home. I love this subject. And I haven't really gone this direction yet on the podcast. So I hope those of you listen, if if this resonates with you, please reach out to Susan, it's gonna be really easy, because all of the links are in the description. They can just click and you know, just reach out and communicate with you. And please do I love hearing from me too. Me too. I love it. Like if anyone's ever thinking, Oh, they probably get so much email. They don't want to be able to barded Like no, we actually really love it when you send us a message. Like yeah, and even if it's a message that you're like, ooh, that really pushed the button or I didn't like that but then I follow through and I listen to the whole cut. Yeah, we really do like that, because that's how we learn and grow. So I am, you know, I think we did a great job, I feel really good about traversing the information that we were set out to, to speak about today. Is there anything? Thank you? Is there anything that you want to add as our conclusion? Well, I just want to let people know where to find me if they would like to do some work to do a yoga sex and death retreat. I am doing another retreat in Greece in May May 11. Through the 18th I believe it's seven days or seven day retreat from Saturday to Saturday in a Greek island, a beautiful, beautiful place. And so if this call to you, if this work calls to you, let's set up a time to talk and and see if Greece is is the time for us to work together. twist my arm? I don't Yeah. Yeah, I also do silent meditation retreats, and I've got one of those coming in Los Angeles in May. And so all of that, just sign up for our, our email list. Cool on summer rocket. center.com. I think you'll you'll have that right. Yes. Yeah, I have some madrasa center.com. UK, we can find you on Facebook and X slash Twitter and Instagram, all on the same handle. So you did a good job of securing that name. I don't have X or Twitter. Oh, I know it will. Oh, on your website, you had you did you do actually I followed you today, believe it or not? Oh, well, that wasn't supposed to leave. That's a fake account. Don't follow her on Twitter. That somebody else somebody else grabbed that name? Representation. That's the neocon trick people. messing with you. Oh. Oh, no. All right, cool. Me too. Yeah. Oh, man. Well, thank you so much. I hope to cross paths in the future in person. But this has been a real joy and a pleasure. And thank you for bringing some professionalism to the table here. I really appreciate it. And I thank you for the same thank you for doing what you do and just asking the questions because I'm, I'm all about the questions. Thank you. Until next time, until next time. Native yoga podcast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time