Pam Jones - Living with Purpose & Discovering Your Dharma

Pam Jones is a yoga teacher and trained Ayurvedic chef. Originally from London, she now resides in Florida. Pam studies under Sri Dharma Mittra and is passionate about sharing her love for yoga with the global community. She is also a certified Ayurvedic nutritionist and enjoys preparing food as a therapeutic and meditative practice.

Visit Pam's website and socials at karmacoco.com.

Key Takeaways:

• Yoga is a moving meditation and a way to connect with the divine.
• Understanding our dosha can help us make dietary choices that support our well-being.
• Practicing concentration and visualization techniques can help develop psychic energy.
• Death meditation can help us reflect on what is truly important in life.
• Being kind and compassionate to ourselves and others is essential for a fulfilling life.

"Kindness and compassion are the keys to living a fulfilling life." - Pam Jones

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Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga, and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Hello, and welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. Today. I'm so excited to have the opportunity to bring to you Pam Jones. Pam is a yoga teacher. She studies under Sri Dharma Mittra. And she also is a trained Ayurvedic chef. During this conversation, Pam shares her journey from growing up in London to finding her way to New York City. Practicing with Dharma Mitra, becoming a yoga teacher and the way that she shares her passion and love for yoga with the global community today. You can find her on her website, karmacoco.com. And all of her social media handles are easily found there, click on the link in the description and you can give her a follow. And thank you so much, Pam, this was great. Let's go ahead and get started. I'm so happy to have Pam Jones here with me today in the studio. And Pam, what a great treat. How are you feeling today? Fantastic. How are you today? I'm doing really well. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor and a pleasure. And thanks so much for all you're doing fantastic platform for us to all share and hopefully can be of service today. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you so much. You have an accent. Where are you from originally? I'm from Brooklyn. I'm kidding. I'm from London. Nice to know that already. But yeah, that's where you're born and raised. Born and raised. I've been in New York for about, let's say 13 years. Okay. Nice. And now you're living in Florida. Living in Florida. Been here for two years. Cool. How was it maybe have changed a little bit? I don't know. But still at Starbucks? I did. Sometimes they don't understand me. So yeah, sometimes have to change my accent. Yeah, you have to try to like, you know, they ask your name Pam and the right, man or her? To the point where I'm just like, it's Pam. There you go. That sounds American. Yeah, I was born and raised in London. Nice. Well, when did you start yoga practice? I've, you know, dabbled in it. For for many years. I was a dancer before. And I've taken classes, you know, probably since I was about 16. And I for me, it was really, they always say right, you. The teacher finds you when you're ready. Yeah. And I think when I was in my 20s, I was always looking for answers. Trying to find happiness. Not not getting it, you know, as we all do, yes. You know, I was a dancer before and I had gone to a really good school and got into a dance company. When I got there, I was like, is this it, you know, wasn't fulfilling for me. And I think that was probably my first class where I took Shivananda yoga. And then later on a few years later, I kind of switched careers and became a fashion designer, I trained in London, went to some of the best design schools, but still there was an on paper look really good, but just didn't fulfill me. My friend said, Why don't you try yoga? I think it was a really low point in my life. Were constantly searching for happiness, you know, going, traveling here and there, or reaching a certain pinnacle of your career and not really feeling fulfilled. And my friend said, Why don't you try some yoga. And at the time, there was a place called Jeevan Mukti yoga in London, which is very, very popular now but Yes time. Some of the some of the teachers that were trained in New York, came to London to build jeevan mukti. London. Gotcha. And that was probably my very first yoga class, a real yoga class where I felt like this is the first time I feel myself, I don't feel judged. I feel like this. This could be it. This is my tribe. This is Yeah, yeah, I feel like some connection here is some connection to whatever you want to call that the divine, the source, whatever. Yeah. And, you know, having been a dance, I love movement, especially more rigorous type of movement and geven, much he was away was really the sequencing I loved. And they also had the focus of the month. So they added some kind of philosophy in there. And for me that it really spoke to me it really was a sign like, maybe this is it like, no, just keep coming back. And the teachers there said, if you're ever in New York, you should meet a yogi called Sri Dharma Mitra. And so I had no idea who this person was. So I googled him. Yeah, I just saw a guy standing on his head with no, you know, yeah, yeah. probably all seen that if you've never seen it, yeah, Google it. Dharma Mitra is standing on, on his head in the middle of the street. And thought, wow. And those two teachers said to me, you know, he's the real deal. Yeah. Because they took classes with him back in the day. Yeah. And so 2007 When I met him, I said to my sister, let's go to New York. Let's meet this three Dharma Mitra, these teachers are saying he's the real deal. Yeah. So you want to meet meet this real? Yeah. And so off, we went. Never been to New York before. I met Sri Dharma and I, when I met him outside, he is the real deal. Yeah. I can't even explain it. Todd. It was like the vibration. Just the whole room. This humility, as you couldn't even tell that he was. He walked in the room so quietly, with such humble energy. Yeah, helping the students, you know, adjusting the mats, everybody's mats were in the right spot. And everybody has enough space. You know, I remember him giving me a paper towel at the end, because there was no paper towel. And I was about to wash my hands. And I was about to wipe my hands on my pants. There was a hand behind me with like his paper towel. So sweet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that was my first. Nice. Nice. And so you had come over, had a visit in New York City, and then went back to London, I'm guessing because you just came over on vacation. So off. So after that vacation, I was like, that's it. I want to move to New York. I don't know how they would have a visa or anything. Yeah. I mean, I just kept praying and praying and thinking about it and visualizing it, that maybe a miracle will happen. And I remember on that flight back, I was thinking, I don't care how I how I, you know, survive in your I just want to train with this master, obviously, is the real deal. And it'd be amazing. I just kept thinking about it. And at that time, I was in my final year of fashion design at the Royal College of Art. And my fashion tutor said, Pam, I, there's a company in New York, a fashion company in New York. That's looking for fashion designers. You got to be kidding me. Like, if this happened, that will be a miracle. Yeah. She put me first on the list. Interviews. I had my portfolio had my the rack of clothes. Yeah, open the door. Welcome, you know, nice to meet you. Look through my portfolio. And he said, Do you know anyone in New York? And I was like, no, but in my mind, I was I know Sri Dharma mittra. He meant Yeah, haven't you friend? Yeah. You have any family? And I was uh huh. No. He says, Are you sure you want to move to New York? And I was like, yeah, yeah. Thinking, if this happens if he offers me a job, this will be the most amazing thing. Yeah. And he said, Welcome to New York. I'm offering her job. And wow, tried to calm Yeah. But as soon as I left that interview, I was jumping up and down. I couldn't leave this happened. Wow. He offered me a job offered me a visa right then in there. It wasn't even like, Let me think about this and call you back later, believe it because, you know, maybe you'd wait until later on in the day or call me back. Yeah. I just remember calling my best friends. moving to New York, that's awesome. And two weeks later, that was what I did. I packed my bags. I moved to New York said oh seven are away. You said and then so this was 2008. Doesn't summer of 2008. Gotcha. And I remember at the time, yeah, because I wanted to do classes with Dom obviously But his evening classes didn't start until 636 o'clock, six o'clock. And I finished work at 630. So there was no way that somehow it changed. So he's classes started a little bit late. I think it's 630 or seven where I was able to just run out of work and go to his class. Yeah, goodness. It's amazing. Right. I was just continuing. I felt like one foot was in corporate world fashion. Yeah. It was in. Yeah. Yeah, he world. Yeah. And for me that time was very special. That's cool. Well, how long did you keep that job in the fashion world? When upon arrival into New York? So it was in the company for about nine years. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Solid steady. Yeah. How was fighting though? It was, I mean, at the beginning was really creative and fun. And I loved it. But the more I got into yoga was like, on beat Yogi now. until much later I realized that I have to give all of that art. Yeah, still can be a yogi in your everyday life. Whatever job you do. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. What was the main thing that stuck out at you in relation to practice with Dharma in relation to was it the asana practice? Was it the mantra practice? Was it the Dharma talks or just you know, hearing philosophy about yoga? Or I mean, the the cool thing about Dharma Mitra is he has you know, he's pulling from all the different methods of yoga in relation to cure time and talking about Bhagavad Gita. So philosophy, and then obviously, there's tons of Asana opportunities, was there something that you that caught you the most in the beginning? Well, in the beginning, it was definitely the fastener. Yeah. You know? Because sometimes when we when we do this asanas, yes, at the beginning, it can be very uncomfortable, especially when you're a bit more. I mean, I was a dancer, so I was already very flexible, but not so much strong. But even so doing a headstand for me was terrifying. I get a lot, I'm gonna break my neck, or Yeah, I'm gonna hurt, you know, hurt someone else. But I was just really, I guess, impressed by what this master could do. But at the same time, he was so humble about it. There was a feeling of devotion, as he was teaching as we were practicing. So DOM often says that all the poses are an offering to God. All the poses are like an offering. It's a moving prayer, moving meditation. So it's not just for you, my body, my I'm getting strong. I'm getting flexible. It's, I guess it's yeah, it's a moving meditation and moving on. It's such a beautiful thing. And you really do feel that when you're taking his class? Yes. But But yeah, at the beginning, it was definitely the asana that drew me in, and then later it was more the philosophy and self realization. Yeah, figuring out who the hell we are, you know, what are we doing? Yeah. What are we doing here? Question? Yeah, have you figured it out? Do you have a good answer for me? But what would be your answer at this point? Well, to realize that we are not this pile of flesh and bones, because this body is always changing, you know, and to realize that what we are searching for, is not out there. That's what led me to dharma really was because there was so much unhappiness and so much, just, you know, when you get somewhere, or you get a big house, or when you go on that vacation, there's always something more. And it's fleeting, and it's transient. And it's always constantly changing. The weather is constantly changing their bodies, your thoughts are constantly changing. I mean, it's so much up and down, up and down, up and down. And if we could just look within a bit more an ebb and flow a bit more with this life, because life is full of these ups and downs, these pleasurable experiences and unpleasurable experiences, if we could just be a bit more of the witness, and not be so identify with, Oh, my God, this is happening. That's always changing as well. And have a bit more of Dharma with his dance with it. Dance with all whatever karma is coming to your to you, and understand and have that faith in the bigger picture. Because we can, you know, we can control maybe the action and the practice, but we can't control the results of what we do, and we shouldn't and we just the Bhagavad Gita says that right? Just do your best and renounce the results of your actions, the fruits of your actions. It's it's easier said than done, because I think we've been brought up in a way that, you know, your parents always told you, you got to go out there, Todd, you got to do it, you got to get it, you got to if you don't do it, you're not gonna get and you got to be a winner, you got to get up and do doo doo. Yeah, I think yoga is just like not doing not constantly doing doing doing doing more, I feel for me, it's more revealing, revealing revealing these layers nice. Like, I always think of a bowl but light bulb that we all have within us. And yoga is peeling away these, this dust these layers of dust that are hiding what's really within the self, the Divinity that's within us all, that, that divinity. That bliss, that happiness doesn't depend on whether how many Instagram likes we have, or what vacation we have, or how much money we have, you know, that's changing the point. While said, Pam, you're making me feel relaxed, because you have such a nice voice. So I feel. Not at all. I like the visuals. I like the visual of the light bulb and the obscuration of the light. And that's a good point. I like the fact that you mentioned to dance with the challenges like, personally, something that came up within this week that has been weighing on my mind a little bit is that more of my son goes to school as a public school, he's in high school, there were two incidents where people were arrested with guns on them in school. So they're now like putting up metal detectors so that everybody coming in and out of school is going to be checked before they get in. And then just yesterday, at our local mall, at the gardens mall, there was a shooting, and everything got locked down. And it just, I guess, made me just have a lot of, I guess I could say fear or apprehension of what is the world coming to on some levels. But I think the way you mentioned dance with that, it just kind of shifted my thinking toward okay, this is the momentary drama that's in front of me. And I just gotta wait to see what it presents, right, like, but I just, I agree, I feel like there's been there's always heavy energy of some sort going on, on some level. So to be able to navigate that, and still feel purpose and still feel optimistic and excited, at the same time process at all. So that we move through it, because I always notice too it does have this like where have a couple of days of like who Wow, whoa, call these great things going on. Oh my gosh, this is so cool. And then a couple of days where it's like, what is going on? What is that? So not getting attached to that? And just seeing what evolves? What, what has been the most recent thing for you that's caused you to go, oh, how can I dance with this? Because I'm just not sure how I could have you had any thoughts about the state of reality or the world currently, that's made you think that way? I mean, sometimes we can get so focused on the negative, especially if you look at the news every day. You just think the whole world is bad. And, you know, there's the world coming to an end and the consciousness of people. I mean, it's crazy what's happening today. And sometimes the mind can really focus on that. And sometimes we get obsessed, right? Even watching the news, we want to know what's happening. And it's almost like this weird obsession we have with negative news and, and to good point and to really pull back and say, acknowledge that there are great things happening there are good people mean yes. Just look at your neighbors look at you know what you're doing. There are great things that are happening good people and their consciousness is rise is rising. Yes. Agreed. Yeah, I agree. 100% I wish the news would just celebrate the good as well as the bad that's a good point. The news is sensational and they want you to be attached and keep looking at it on your phone. Yeah, what's the next tutorial? Next? Very good point. So then what is your strategy? Do avoid it Do you stay in touch? Do you do a combo both what is your personal health habit in relation to consumption of information? I mean, I look at it and to stay in touch but I know I have to really be aware of when is it healthy and when is it not healthy? Put that phone down. Don't I never have the phone when I'm sleeping. I never have it in the bedroom. Always put it Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My time and some people have like, okay, they have the time or like no more than an hour on the news or whatever it is social media. Yeah. I think it's just having that self control. Yes. Of how much time and whether it's good for us whether it's healthy for us, or we're being sucked into this vortex for you know, you spent like two hours on the phone. Yeah, whatever it is your point, right? It's spending two hours helping someone else or talking to you or meditating or doing Yes, yes. How much did you put on that? Versus? Good plan? Good point. Good question or good, good point. In relation to then obviously, we can take in info via our eyes and our ears. I don't really feel like I use my nose when I read the news very much. So on that No. What about your philosophy on what you ingest as food? Because then there's like the mouth? I think the nose probably plays a little more with the mouth, the taste the smell? What is your current practice? Or what do you what's your thoughts on diet? My thoughts on diet. So, you know, as a practitioner, it's very important that we practice Ahimsa, non violence. I mean, that's what Sri Dharma My teacher always drilled into us, like try your best to see yourself and others not just human beings, but also animal beings. And all beings love life. That is words all beings love life, and they fear violence. So you know, there's no judgement, everyone has their choice and their practice and what's good for them and what's, you know, but I feel for me at the moment, it's a vegan diet. Which means trying to avoid anything that's from an animal. Yeah, I still have some things that I guess I'm not a pure vegan because I still have some things that are made of wool or, you know, an old belt but I wouldn't consciously buy a new Yeah, a leather belt or made of down or something like that. But die is very important because it not only it's about Ahimsa, non violence, seeing yourself and others and other beings but also with what you feel as well. When you eat junk food, processed foods, dead foods, you often feel dead, processed and lacking of energy. So, as a practitioner, you always want to feel full of lifeforce energy because we made of lifeforce energy. So to have that fuel to really fuel the body in the right way. Yeah, junk food, processed food, frozen food, things like that. Yeah. Do you prepare food? Are you Yeah, I love that's one of my favorite things because I love I love making food because it's, it's therapeutic for me. I know a lot. I can't stand I can't be in the kitchen. i Yeah, for me, it's the whole process is a meditation. Yeah. infuse your food with positive vibration with mantras. I love singing, singing, and when that person eats it when you're serving others, they also feel that love that vibration because of what you have your thoughts and your prayers that you put in. So the whole thing is a practice for me. That's cool. Have you seen the movie Like Water for Chocolate? Yeah, isn't that cool? Yeah, those of you listening that have not seen it. The basic gist is that like maybe, as the chef is cooking, say cake. And if she was crying while she was cooking it and maybe even a tear dropped into the cake, or maybe just the emotion that she's feeling while she's cooking. When the people would eat the cake. They'd start crying or like whatever emotion she had, which, you know, maybe it doesn't happen that intensely but I think that's interesting in relation to this concept in yoga of Prashad or purshottam. Where we offer my first exposure to yoga was via the Krishna Consciousness Movement The Hari Krishna is and so there was always they would cook the food and then offer it to Krishna first and then after the food was blessed and were offered to God or Krishna then you need it and it was this idea that you're kind of like saying grace or you know having a prayer before or there was offering appreciation to some curious do you have any rituals like that that you involve in your yoga and or cooking processes when we make the food and then serve it before we eat it to sit down to say a blessing to say a prayer to thank all the people that made it possible from the people that grew it to people with a grocery store to the people you know, yeah truck driver that bought the vegetables to the group, you know, the whole chain of people really to say thank you and how blessed we are to have this amazing food was so blessed all this organic food, there's so much choice and yet there's people just having any of that starving in the world. So being grateful before and it just yeah, just makes you feel good and and you'll be able to digest it better that way. Just yeah, Wolfing it down. Yeah, sometimes I do forget Hello, everyone. My my husband, Andrew here. Remember, we have the mantra for purification, which is which Dharma teaches us. So we say that before we eat is very cool. Do you? What is like when you wake up in the morning? Do you like cook every day? Do you try to prepare this big amount of food at the beginning of the week so that you aren't scrambling and reaching for frozen food? Or do you have a ritual that keeps you where you're ready to go? Simple. So it's not overwhelming. So sometimes I do prepare. I don't cook like the beginning of the week and eat the whole because then it's, it's the prime is dwindling as the week goes on. So yeah, I try to cook every day, but I cook really simple things like a red lentil soup. I might have soaked them the night before. So then there's that step of preparation. So I'm not Yeah, I spent hours in the kitchen. Or maybe I'll chop some vegetables in the morning so that by the evening they're just ready to throw in and it's super quick as one pot 20 minutes and I'm done. You know. That's cool. And you're certified our Vedic nutritionist. Did I get that right? That's it. Yeah. Can you explain for those of us that have never heard about the doshas, can you explain or is that to be really in depth, but can you at least name them or explain the doshas and which one you think you fall into? Yeah, absolutely. So, I Veda is the science of life. So in IE VEDA we talk about these energies, these doshas. So you have air and space and fire and water and earth. So vata are are really comprised of Air and Space. Focus on all of us are all three doshas, but my my constitution and maybe a little bit more pitter maybe I have a dual constitution, pitta, kapha, right, but I have all three, everybody has all three of them just different proportionality ease each person Yeah. So vata will be air and space. So if you think of a balloon, and you release it in the air, it just goes wherever, you know, the wind blows its light its airy tendency for vata vata Constitution is a bit more of the Aryan spacey qualities. They a little bit inconsistent. They can be if, if unbalanced, yeah, that their frame is thin and narrow shoulders, narrower hips, we call them skinny Mini. They're cooler to touch with the skin and have drier skin, maybe suffer a little bit of dry hair, dry colon, they may suffer from constipation, if not dealt with properly. During the fall, which is Varta season, they can experience a lot more of these verses symptoms like dry colon, dry skin, dry hair, dry nails, brittle nails. So they have to balance that out and the eye VEDA there's one more rule, one golden rule, which is like increases like an opposites bring balance. What does that mean? So if I'm cold, I naturally put on a sweater. If I'm thirsty, if I'm drying my mouth, I drink some water. Right? We constantly bring ourselves into balance, we do it unconsciously. Yeah. And I've added we're doing it consciously. So if you know your vata constitution, and you feel you have dry hair, you suffer from constipation, you may have a bit more of those areas. Spacey thoughts, like, spacey nurse or anxiety or ungrounded. Nurse think of that balloon is ungrounded. Just wafting away? Yes, we can help ourselves by eating more grounded foods like grains, sweet potatoes, root vegetables, the root vegetables have a special grounding quality. So beets and carrots and parsnips and celeriac, like all going to help you eat more soups and stews and warming foods. Avoid dry foods because if you're if you're already dry, and you eat dry things, remember the golden rule is going to bring you more dry. Yeah, that makes sense. I would start with moisture. You know, he was foods, good oils, good fats, things like that. So and then. So I'm going if it's too much detail, no, that's good. That's good. If you're pitter that's a fire and water so I'm more of a picture type. So medium frame, they have what genuinely have a warmer skin and mind is usually quite sharp but their tendency is to if unbalanced. The tendency is more critical, more perfectionism. You know, you've you've met people like that right? Sometimes when you would sometimes really pitter fire Enos, you know, I gotta have a break from you. You know, sometimes too competitive, too critical of themselves and others because of that fiery nature. Um, so, so of course, if you're fiery, and we eat heating foods like jalapeno, cayenne, pepper, chili, pepper, curries, coffee, chocolate, those foods are going to give you more heat until you balance that with more cooling foods. Avocados and cilantro cucumbers, especially in Florida weather is hot. Yeah, for more, you know, bigger body type, a good amount of muscle and tissue, they're really good skin, they usually have beautiful big eyes and good skin, good thick hair. So that's more earth and water. So if you think of Earth, it's really grounded. You can build things with it. So they're normally very stable person. They make good listeners. But their tendency is imbalanced. They can be a bit more leaning towards obesity. You know, overweight obesity, possessiveness on graph, you know, too much groundedness? Yeah, yeah. Not enough air not enough balance that we're more light foods, right? Light foods, light foods, life life or light, light food light foods, because it covers quite heavy naturally, if you have more potato and too many cheese and ice cream and heavy foods, and then it's going to be more heavy, like increases like so. Bring that back to balance with the opposite foods. Yeah, some warm foods and easy to digest light foods. Nice. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. Do you think that has like the similar correlation in relation to asana practice in terms of posing counterpose? back bend forward bend? Do you see similarities in those two disciplines? Yeah, I think they're both just as important. Yeah. And we can balance that with, you know, with our age with where we are in the world, with the season without dosha everything, where we are all conditioned. So that's why there's not one rule that fits all in food and in yoga. That's the beauty, isn't it of yoga, is that there are so many different styles. There's not one that's better than the other. It's just perfect, because we need different. Yoga is for different people, different conditions. Yeah, good point. Do you have a mantra practice that you gravitate toward or a specific mantra, that's your daily go to? mantra that you use to protect your mind? There is one that I mentioned before mantra for purification, I can't share it because normally it's done with just by listening to dharma and trying to recite that. You always says that should never be written down. Yeah. The mantra I normally chon every morning is a mantra to purify the ground and the space and the psychic subtle channels in our body. The mantra for purification? Can you I know it's probably hard to put into words, subtle energy or talking about subtle energy, or psychic energy or chakra energy. But can you attempt to verbalize what your learning has been since practicing with Dharma in relation to these subtler energies? Yeah, that's a big question. It Yeah, I mean, I guess at the beginning of your of the practice or the beginning of our journey, it's more physical, right? We do the asanas. You know, we do the certain lines, right? We hit certain lines and shapes. But yet, there's an underlying subtle energy there as we're hitting those lines. Like when we're doing a warrior properly. You feel like a warrior. There's this energetic, I guess, a subtler energy. That maybe you can't see maybe the yoga teacher can't see that but you feel it but by hitting those lines by by doing the POWs and feeling like war, or you become it, you you know, like not just a warrior but I guess any post I call them arsena tortilis pose My head is down. Our limbs are like, out here. And I guess we're withdrawing the senses, just like a tortoise with would withdraw its limbs into the shell. Yeah. Yeah. But in terms of Yeah, chakras and subtle energy and things that we can't see. We call them, I guess, suffer and spiritual, like DOM always says, These are very cheap cameras, these eyes, they can see form, and colors and textures. But often in yoga, we say, draw the attention to your third eye. Well, where's the third eye? I can't, there's no, I literally, I can't see your third eye. But it's there energetically. And if we can just close our eyes and bring that attention there. It's this point here is called the third eye or the eye of wisdom. Because it's the portal to divine consciousness. And whether, you know, there's no truth to that. But we have faith in that right? Faith and, yeah, feel it. Yes. That's cool to explain. It's difficult to explain. I don't know that it's possible. To be honest, I imagine each person's experience with that is very unique. Have you had a kundalini experience? Could you? And you don't have to answer these questions, because I understand that maybe if someone does have a kundalini experience with feel like they have had, they might feel like, well, it's not something that I want to talk about publicly. Because it might be so personal, I remember meeting, or hearing the first time I came across somebody that said, I believe in God, but I don't talk about God because my communication with God and or my relationship with God is something that's so personal, that I just don't talk about it out loud. I don't express that verbally. So I completely understand if, if it's something that you don't want to answer, but have you had or do you think you've had an experience of Kundalini and I guess I should try to define what I think Kundalini is, and what I understand Kundalini is, is that there's, you cannot, you can feel some type of vibration in the central channel, and that we have this Edom Pingala, these two auxilary channels on either side. And that perhaps energy would go from the three and a half times wrapped around the sacrum up through the spinal column, and then some sort of uplifting through the top of the head. What has been your experience with Kundalini? Have you had any type of association with that? Kundalini Yeah, it's interesting, this the word isn't it as like, Oh, what is the what does it mean? What is it? Yeah? Is it a feeling is a for sure I've had, you know, a feeling of absolute bliss, absolutely connected, I feel that yeah, again, these are all experiences. And the mind can also witness that. And even if we did have the Kundalini experience, you know, we may think, Oh, I'm there, I'm enlightened or I'm I'm reached Samadhi. But it's still an experience. The DOM often says, that still not it because you're experiencing it. Whatever you can experience this bliss, this Kundalini energy, still not it, because ultimately, it's not something you can experience within that subject. Object. Yeah. Yeah, just is compliant. What have you learned studying with him in relation to psychic energy? Because I know he has a class on a schedule that is psychic development class, I remember the first time I saw a schedule, and I saw the psychic development class, I thought, Wow, I wonder what that class is like? Can you explain what he does and or what your experience has been in that field? Love, love, love those techniques. And I think that we all we all can be psychic as. And when I say psyche, I don't mean reading the crystal ball or anything like that. But we all have imagination we all can visualize. When we were a kid, we visualized going to Disney World or whatever. And we're there. It's amazing those techniques, because a lot of those techniques are dealing with prana. And kind of building this psychic, what you call it like a firewall, sort of protection. So we often do certain breathing techniques where we draw the energy up through the spine and back as concentration meditation as well as moving the prana. Yes, very difficult to do those techniques when the mind is somewhere else. Yeah. But they're great techniques also to bring the mind back and just to be focused on, can you bring your attention from the toes all the way up to the crown and back? And, yeah, you know, different parts of the body. So it's a great way to for concentration, but we're moving the prana. In I can't talk too much about the psychic development techniques, because it's something again, it's should be done with the master and learn in person. But, yeah, I mean, a lot, often, I will think of a question and he's answered it without me asking the question. So that's psychic, right? Like, have you ever thought of a friend and then 10 minutes later, they call you? That's psychic? Then you have that? Your thought is moving on the prana. communication through silence. It's pretty amazing. Yeah. And I love that I think, I think maybe we're moving towards more of that in the future. Rather than talking like this, we could just, I know what you're thinking. Yeah, good point. So the cell phones are the merit material manifestation of psychic energy maybe. Yeah, like what we at some point, we just decided let's not trust, our psychic ability. So let's get concrete evidence. So let's hold a device that can actually transmit this strange thing is analogy with the cell phone. So he says, they're all cell phones. We all think weathers them form. I'm Motorola. Yeah, maybe Samsung. Someone else might be iPhone. Eight different models were so identified with this cell phone set. Yeah. But without the signal. The cell phone would be dead. Yeah. Wouldn't work. Yeah. Yeah, the cell phone with the signal. So maybe, when I get when this cell phone set gets older, I need to change it for a new cell phone update it to iPhone. What is it now? 14 or whatever? update it? Yeah, the sacrum has seen hasn't changed. Yeah. Yeah, good point. I like that. It's a good analogy, isn't it? I haven't heard that one. Yeah. That's kind of fun. So identify with this. Yeah. With this name and form with body personality. identify with this ego this I am. What do you I know this is a subject that sometimes is a little bit more challenging. But what type of meditations do you do on passing on death? On letting go? Do you ever? Are you able to put time into that? Or do you? Is that something that maybe you just avoid? Oh, no, I definitely put time into that. Yeah, I mean, it's a big one for me death. What? Who's dying first? The body body in the Gita. I think it's chapter two or something. You know, the person cars have worn out clothes. So the embodied self also, cars have worn out bodies and enters into new ones, right. You know, when my so my mother passed away about four years ago, so it was a big shock to the whole family. You know, she did yoga, she was a dancer. And, you know, I remember getting that phone call saying mom's in hospital. And no, me flying from New York, come back to London. Just seeing her in intensive care, have oxygen masks everything. Like it was complete shock. I remember and I remember as a kid crying in my bed thinking one day, not gonna have my parents like, one day in the future. I'm not going to be here physically. And that day comes around just like that. When you least expect it. I remember thinking to my you know, my mom, she so after she had an operation it was bowel cancer. And colon cancer. Stage four. When they opened her up it was already it was so far from here. There was like war all the way here like whoa, stage four colon cancer. Yeah. So it was huge shock but also it was a beautiful thing and the way that she dealt with it. Because those last two years after she got the diagnosis, she was like, that's it you know, live my life to the max and do everything that I want to do. We took her to Italy. We she just you know all the clothes that she had saved for parties and things. She wore them every day. Shoes that new clothes. We took literally she manage it even though she was really really thin. She You manage to enjoy the food. And she she had a great time. And yeah, tell us like, Don't worry about me. She was like, fearless. Let's go. Take with me. Yeah, think about her every day and like, see my mom's face. She was fearless. And it's very, you know, of course, we go through grief. And we go through all these like, and then it makes you think of your own mortality, right? When you do when you lose a loved one or the victories that someone that's very close. Yes, it also makes you think of your own mortality. And to think that you've got to do the things that you you love. And what's important, it makes you question what's important in life? Yeah. Good point. Is it spending that much time on social media? Is it? You know, is it spending time with my loved ones? You know, can I? Can I hug my dad a bit more? Can I spend time with my sister a bit more? Can I help others a bit more? Can I do you know, spend time doing the practice? Because that's so important to you? No? Question. Yeah, yeah, I, I actually do a death meditation in the morning. It's funny, you asked that, because it's kind of a Buddhist meditation. I learnt this from a fantastic teacher called GeSHI. Michael roach. And it's, it's, you know, sitting there and visualizing your own death really is not to sound morbid, but to imagine what it's like, visualize your own death. Imagine you're in a coffin. This is, or imagine not, maybe not so much in the coffin. But if this was your last week, you can see the people mourning, you can see the people around you all the things that you've accumulated throughout your whole life. Can see it all laid out there. And you ask yourself, like what is important? And maybe you make some changes in your life. Do the things that you love. You know, live your dharma do the things that you love. Yeah, like it's your last day. You never You just never know when that day, we think that we live to 8090. But you just never know. Yeah, it's a good point. That's a great meditation. I know it's can trigger people to talk about to add to you know, go deep and on actually coming to terms with the fact that how much more time I don't know, right? Yeah. But it does make life a little bit more exciting. Don't you think? I think yeah, yeah, agreed. This we've always been we've been here before. This is like another time we new body. And then next live, it's like, okay, just gonna continuation of where you left off in the past. Yes. This lifetime. I'm so curious what caused you to want to leave New York and come to Florida? Well, COVID happened. What was that? Oh, I don't remember that. Like so long ago. Joking. i Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yes. Many things. Well, what was your experience in New York City because I had a chance to interview yoga teachers that were in New York during COVID. I started this podcast, it'll be four years ago in March. And so my first episode, I'm sitting in my garage with my microphone, and this little mixer going? What's going on? Holy cow. I don't get it. What's happening right now. Let's, and um, so then as I started to interview different teachers around the world and find out I was, like, very therapeutic for me, because, you know, you just I felt isolated. I think everybody felt isolated on one level or another. So I'm just curious, because New York City, I think would have been a very difficult place to be in a city period. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was enlightening. Maybe you had a great experience. Not a great experience. But maybe you were able to take something from it. Can you definitely I still love that city. It's like the best one in the world. I think. It's a sense of why why do you think your sense of you can achieve anything? It's like that great song. can do anything? Not in London? Not the same vibe. No, not quite. Not quite. It's a bit more gloomy. It's a bit more again, let's have a drink. Let's go to the pub. Culture. But in New York, you have that feeling? I don't know why it's this vortex. I think it's this vortex. Yeah. Energy. It's like, Yep, I can do anything. Yeah. And people, I feel just, in general, very positive. It can be exhausting. It is very exhausting. I would say. If you don't if you don't have a practice, you don't have a morning practice yoga practice and it's something because of that vortex and constantly doing and achieving. And I'm walking around with my coffee and I've got to do something. Something somewhere. Yeah. Ah, so definitely has a lot of that energy. And then when COVID It was really interesting because yeah, everything just stopped. It was like this vortex just was like everything boarded. Yeah, I remember going to Trader Joe's six feet. Yeah. People yelling each other you do to close your dog. Yes. Yeah. So it's very, very surreal. It was like almost like a ghost town at some point. And a lot of fear. We lived in East Village site at Stuyvesant Town. I remember Yeah. Six o'clock. I think it was five at six o'clock, we would all bash our pots and pans to thank the health work. Yeah, I remember that. Like that. And yeah. Everything would be taken from the shelves and Trader Joe's and Whole Foods and stuff. And doing yoga online. I mean, yeah. I was talking about that with Andrew. And, yeah, so surreal. Yeah, I remember doing that. The final helping out of the final teacher training there. You know, and people didn't have enough masks. And I had one left. And I gave it to a student. I said, you take you going back to Singapore, you take it, you know. The whole thing was just so surreal, and then trying to figure out this whole thing. Yeah, it was. It wasn't even zoom. Vimeo. We're trying to do Vimeo. Like faffing around on that. And what's the IG live or whatever, and being able to see the students that was super weird. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, challenging for sure. Yeah. And now we're just like, it's just like, second hand analysis. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. I think it's a beautiful thing that came out of I mean, it's, it was tragic. And so many people lost their lives and so much suffering, but at the same time, made people question what was important in their lives? Yeah, I agree. And also the fact that people can access you, you were doing probably the same zoom where people all over the world could do your class now. True. Anyway, it does. Yes. It doesn't have to be some live. So yeah. It just opened a few more doors, I think. But yeah, New York was kind of weird. It was very surreal. And that was let's go to Florida. Oh, we have a family apartment. in Palm Beach. Yeah, yeah, it was actually Andrews mother's summer home. Gotcha. made sense. It was really old. We renovated it. Perfect timing. Yeah. Didn't make sense to be in nitwit. I mean, we had our time in New York. And we're still learning from Dharma and all that. Still being with the Sangha. We fly back and forth all the time, but just didn't make sense to pay crazy amount of rent. Where the studio is closed and can't really do much everything online. Let's be in a sunny place. Be somewhere that's actually warm and nice. And see each and Yes. Had to renovate the apartment anyway. So it was a perfect, nice. That's so you New York is so close. Just a couple of hours and you're there really is the best of both worlds. I think Have you driven? Have you driven yet from Florida to New York? Or if you only flown? Yes, we actually drove haven't drove that whole distance yet. So nice drive. Yeah. Yeah, I stopped off at West Virginia or something. That's cool. Beautiful camera outside. I'm so happy that you guys moved to Florida. This is such a treat. It's been such a pleasure to have you guys come in and practice. And I remember you took tamaraws class first. And she's like, Oh, my gosh, I met these really cool people that were up in New York. They're living here in Florida. And I practice with Dharma and they seem really sweet and super nice. And so I was like, I can't wait to meet them. And I think you guys came a couple times before, I actually got a chance to meet you like maybe a couple of months or a month or two went by before it actually coordinated. And so I'm really excited to have this chance to get to know both you guys and and for those of you listening, you're hearing half of the married couple. The next half will be Pam's husband, Andrew. So with that being said, I'm really thankful for you to come in today and to get a chance to converse like this and for me to be able to hear your story and share it. Is there anything else that you feel like if you have Ken maybe what if today was your last day on planet earth? Well, at least for this time around and you have to leave a message Oh, that too heavy or too big. Shape prepped you with this question before you showed up. So you know what to say that question what what Would you say to the world, what would you say to the world you're leaving us behind? You're not leaving us behind right now. We got many, many, many good years to go. I've never had anybody asked me this question. I don't know. I don't know. My psychic skills are not fully developed yet. I don't know what is happening. However, messages. Yeah, look after each other. Nice look after each other, be kind to one another. Keep practicing, keep practicing. Because even if we don't reach the goal, whatever the goal is self realization, enlightenment. You just pick up where you left off in the next life. So it's not the end. Yeah, just to be kind and compassionate to each other. Nice. Deep, nothing too deep. Just to just be nice. You guys. Just be nice. Let's be kind to everybody. look after one another. On this journey together. Yeah. And sometimes it's very easy to be like, you know, so critical of yourself or not, I should be yogi, I should have been doing this. Or even critical of others. That person should not good. Or she said there's no, if you this was your last day. And you probably be nicer to everybody else. Yeah. Yeah, amazing. Pam. Thank you so much. Thank you, Tom. Thanks for having me. It's such an honor. Pleasure. Thank you. Native yoga podcast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time