Benjamin Sears - Finding Freedom in Discipline: Balancing Structure and Autonomy in Yoga Practice

In this enlightening episode, Benjamin Sears delves deep into his personal journey with yoga, sharing the transformative influence it has had on both his physical health and mental clarity. The conversation uncovers Benjamin's diverse experiences with yoga styles, from Kundalini and Bikram to Dharma Mittra and Forrest yoga, and his quest for balance and freedom in his practice.

Visit Benjamin on his website: https://benjaminsears.life/
Follow him on IG: https://www.instagram.com/benjamin.sears/
Subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/benjaminsears

Key Takeaways:

• Benjamin Sears found solace and healing in yoga, transitioning from debilitating back pain to deep self-awareness.
• He discusses the importance of nuance and context in backbending, focusing on distributing movement evenly throughout the spine.
• Benjamin emphasizes discipline in practice while acknowledging the diversity in yoga styles and its adaptability to individual needs.
• The episode introduces the concept of "minimum effective dose" in practice, urging practitioners to consider sustainability and personal growth.

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Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com All right, let's begin Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin. And today I'm so excited to bring to the podcast Benjamin Sears. Benjamin is a very solid and strong yoga practitioner who I think you're gonna love hearing his insights. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I can't wait for you to hear this all the way through. Go ahead and find Benjamin on his website www.benjaminsears.life, definitely go follow him on Instagram. If you're on that app, @benjamin.sears. For YouTube lovers, this episode, if you're listening just on audio, go ahead and go over to YouTube on Native Yoga Center, you can find this episode and watch Benjamin. See how he moves, speaks and sounds. You're gonna love it. His handle on YouTube is at @benjaminsears. And you know what you just got to you got to just get into listening to some of the technical ideas and understanding of movement Asana, breath. Ways to approach the practice. Ways to back off. How to know when to approach. When to back off. Some of the insights that he shares comes from years and years of practice and love for yoga and putting himself into the ring with so many different movement specialists. So man, I really enjoyed this. Thank you, Benjamin. It really was a pleasure. And I hope to host you here at Native Yoga Center. And for those of you listening can come in practice with him here. Give us some feedback. Send us a note, let us know what you think. All right, let's go ahead and begin. So happy to have the opportunity to meet and speak with Benjamin Sears and Benjamin. Thank you so much for joining me today here on on my podcast. It's a pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. I think, you know, maybe you can send me some of that Florida warm. Because the reason I was doing it's late is it's minus about 30 here in Montana right now. Oh, yeah. I had a little issue with the with the minor issue with the boiler just like a setting that had the switch. So I was running around trying to my mom's here visiting. I was trying to make sure my 83 year old mom doesn't freeze. Yeah, good idea. I watched some weather this morning. And I saw there they were saying things like, you know, 30 to 50 below, like way up in the northern states. And I just I don't know what pretty real 50 below what that feels like. I've never been in that kind of feels like don't go outside. Yeah, don't even chance it. Could you get it? Could you frostbite, like how long would it take and that kind of weather like, you know, I don't know the technical details, but I know that it's not a pleasant sensation. I mean, you know, like, as cold as it gets. I'll still like go outside for like maybe a little walk or walk over to the garage or you know, check the solar panel heating system and make sure that's working. But there was a one thing I didn't do this morning that I should have maybe done is there. I have solar panels over the detached garage and I could have gone out there and clean them off. But it involves like a ladder and a brush. Yeah, well, I'll definitely try to share some some Florida sunshine with ya. Appreciate that. I'm excited to speak with you. You've been at the yoga you've been practicing yoga for years now. And I really have been enjoying looking at checking out the information you have on your Instagram page, your YouTube channel, and your website of which all those links are below people can click and follow you and see what you're up to. But can you give me some insight into what inspired you to find yoga and or what was your introduction to yoga? So yeah, it's interesting. I was thinking about this before we talked because I for so many years did these like long lectures when I would travel and do workshops and part of it would be like my background and history and I really liked sort of veered away from that and the workshops are all much more condensed now and whatnot. Then I was like guys probably gonna ask me about my, my history and yoga. So I should remember how it all started. So yeah, so, I mean, we can track way back to kind of like high school years. At that point, I was just that kid who was interested in esoteric ideas, you know, like reading Siddhartha, because I was curious or like, you know, that kind of stuff, doing like, meditations that I invented on like Jewish holidays, you know, my family was like, it's sort of barely religious, Jewish. So sometimes we would observe the holidays. And, you know, I found myself doing like, meditations by mistake. And I ski race when I was when I was a kid. And I think this is probably my first experience of like, conscious meditation where I would, on the chairlift on the way up, I remember being quite anxious and also cold. And I started doing this thing where I would visualize a candle flame. At my third eye, I didn't know what a third eye was, or any of that kind of thing, right. And I just was like, doing it on the on the chairlift, and it mellowed me out, and made me feel good. And then, you know, like, fast forward, what must have been 20 plus years, and I'm teaching Trataka meditation to my teacher trainees, as the, you know, end of the day thing, because I think it's a really great tool for unwinding, and tends to make people sleeping, like in a good way. So yeah, so that was sort of like, those were like little embers maybe of motivation for something that I didn't know what it was that I was looking for. And then, when I was, you know, sort of college age, I'd always been really into sports, and I got into weightlifting, and weight training, you know, to support those endeavors. And I have this congenital issue in my lower back, called spinal listhesis, where my my, like lower backs kind of jam forward over my pelvis. So it just makes it really easy to have back issues. There's a lot of people that live with Spondylus thesis and are fine and like, never even uncovered. But I think it was a combination of sports I was doing in the way that I was training, I don't, I am actually a proponent of weight training. But the way that I was weight training at that time, was not productive for my frame. And it was just putting, I think, more and more pressure on that one inch point. And so you know, I'm in college, and I look fit and ripped and all that stuff. But I was just, I was in pain a lot. And then I got in a car accident. And then from that point, it was just like, I anytime I tried to do anything, my back would go, quote, unquote, out, and I would just be like, useless. And it was a big irony, because here I am, you know, maybe 21 years old, and, you know, 10, pack abs and all that stuff, but just unfunctional completely. And so that was really what you know, I certain doctors were considering, like a certain like a disc surgery and, and then other end, you know, enough people told me were like, You got to try yoga. And that was what pushed me into yoga just started sort of like sampling different things. I happened to have a friend of a friend who was older than I was who ran a small studio in Los Angeles where I was living at the time. That was the they taught Kundalini Yoga and Pilates was like a cool mix. And I started working with him. And then I just like was looking on the internet and I one day showed up to hot yoga class at the Bikram yoga College of India, which was like this kind of creepy looking place off the 10 freeway that I had driven by, like 100 times be like, that looks weird. I've never been in there, you know. And then I go in there and I'm in like sweatpants and a hoodie and, you know, thinking of going to yoga and or whatever, you know, and then I just and then that really, that did something for me like the Kundalini practices were great. And that I was doing because I was going to Kundalini Yoga West in LA, they just weren't blunt enough of a sort of object or, you know, heavy mallet for the back stuff that I was dealing with at that time. Maybe if I was more patient, like sometimes I wonder if I had just stuck with that, like, would I have just ended up fixed anyway and just on a slightly different path, you know, so that was how it happened, you know, and then I got really into over took a little while but I got really into that hot yoga practice. It really helped my back and my knees initially, we can talk more about what happened later. And then I you know, as I was getting really deep into the practice for those physical reasons, I was also noticing some mental shifts, you know, towards more consciousness of my behavior and inner monologues and and then some really tragic should happen and it at that point it was like okay, I need yoga to feel okay. That's how it happened. Epic answer I have so many questions off of what you just said. And I'm so thankful to have this chance to speak with you because I just this last year gained record or gained insight into that I have Spondylus thesis as well. And so just to hear, I can't wait. I just have so many questions for you about your journey with this because, man, like you said, the back pain and it's so intense. And then. Yeah, and so I've been relearning everything based off of this information now. So there's a lot there. My second avenue I got asked you right away, though, was the Bikram studio that you went to the one on La Cienega Boulevard, or was Yeah, yeah. Big blue sign. And yeah. Yeah, I did teacher training with Bikram in 2001. At that studio, and that was amazing. So I was a couple years after you I was in 2006. Gotcha. namespace for the teacher training. Yeah, yeah, that was so intense, right. I mean, I have I have so many questions for you there as well. And yeah, it's like another. Like, it's like a parallel universe. We briefly entered it, as you know, in those days. Well, actually, I have a great question for you. I have a question for you. Right. Great question. I have a question for you. So when I was doing Bikram with back then and I remember, you know, we'd be in the room we being candle, candle pose, and there's three 300 people in the room hotter and hotter than I don't even know if we could describe how hot it for people understand like how incredibly hot it was. But um, and then Bikram go and push and push and push and push and push and push and push some camel and I'm pushing my hips forward. And then that was even then back in 2001, I'd come out and be like, Oh, my back, like, what did I do to my back, and I was completely unaware. And I don't even know when my Spondylus thesis happened. I had a really bad fall when I was a kid out of a rope swing 20 feet down into two inches of water on my back. So that probably could have been or maybe I was born with some sort of genetic thing. I don't know. But I wasn't until like, you know, now 20 something years later, where I've got so bad that now I'm realizing wow, is backbending really good for me. So that's where I have to ask you right away. What has been your journey with back bending based on the fact that if that l five or four is pushed forward, every time we back then then our spine is process potentially is compressing the, you know, the spinal cord? What has been your experience really excessively? Yeah, I mean, I think that you know, everything at the answer to every such question is contextual, you know, and this is why I think that, you know, Bikram yoga, or whatever it's called now is a wonderful beginner's practice. And some people will understand that, and understand that I'm complementing the practice, and some people will feel insulted. And they'll have to reconcile that themselves. What I mean by that is, it's very broad strokes. The instructions are very general, they're geared towards people that have limited awareness of their bodies and are just kind of getting moving. And, you know, I think that that's, that's, could you Sorry, could you hold one second? There's just a noise to my side. Stop. No worries. Okay. It's just like, totally was my last my focus? How can I? So good play? Yeah. So okay. So the practice is one of the reasons it's impactful is because it is so blunt, and it is so broad, right? Like, it's very hot. The instructions are very simple. Everybody's doing the same thing. And that's powerful, and impactful. And one of the wonderful things about the practice, it doesn't mean that those things are inherently negative. But it does mean that it's they're inherently limiting. Right? So I think that within the question of backbending, pretty soon after one begins practice, it's useful to develop some awareness of like nuance, and what's appropriate for the individual to, you know, progress and maintain health and practice sustainably. And so, you know, like, there are people that will say things like all back bending heals the spine and these overgeneralization are sort of like inflammatory comments, whether they're positive or negative, get a lot of attention, and they're quotable. And so they're very, they're easy to attach to because they don't require an individual to do a lot of critical thinking. And we're all sort of it's it's, it's easy as a human being to lean into something that makes you feel like that's the one answer and you don't have to delve too deep into the particularities that might apply to you and so yeah, backbending is Great, like, I'd love to back then it feels amazing. Do I back then now the same way that I did, when I was thought that I would be enlightened, if I could just get my toes to touch my head, like no way, you know, my practice has changed a lot. And I think that's a normal arc for a lot of people. And also, I think that each individual has the autonomy to prioritize what they want to prioritize in their own practice. And through all of these endeavors that we choose to chase, in practice, we get the opportunity for insight and information. So, you know, some of the data that you got, right back then was like, Maybe this isn't good for me. But it's very hard when you're in a scenario where the energy is so intense, there's 300 people, and there's this very charismatic and inspiring guy, you know, those are his good qualities, right. You know, like motivating you to just keep doing it harder and more, and that if I, you know, I think that's, that's in the simplest way, the biggest, you know, gripe I have with that practice is that, like, if it's not working, just do it harder. You know, and I'm all for effort, like, you got to make effort to find grace, but you have to mediate effort with skill, right? So in order to really get somewhere that you want to go not just get somewhere, but get somewhere you want to go. And progress isn't linear, it's not straight ahead. When something hurts, it's a it's like a sign on the side of the road that says, hey, like, you pull over here, and let's check your tires, you know. So, yeah, I think that there's a lot that can be said about back bending. And I think that also there, there are individual genetic realities that people want to ignore, because yoga is supposed to be for everybody. But the fact that not everybody is gonna be a contortionist doesn't mean that yoga isn't for everybody. Right? It's like, it's still when it's played, like a sport, it's a sport, man, you know, like, like, people who play basketball and get to a high level have either a lot of height, or a great vertical leap or some particular skill, you know, and so, it's okay, that bodies Express poses differently, but I do feel that bodies, all bodies can use the same fundamentals of technique. And so the, you know, backbending, the more you do something, think of it this way, the more you do something, the better your technique needs to be. Because the more volume that you that you engage in, the more revelations you're going to have. And the revelations are not always pleasant, like people think of revelation as like, Oh, my God, this guy opens, everything is shining bright, and everything is beautiful, but a revelation, you know, it means that you come around to an understanding. Yes. Right. And so you might come around to an understanding that the way that I'm doing this ain't so good for me anymore, you know? Yes. So, oh, man, well said, well said, Yeah. And I think you're one of the problems with these practices, is not so much the practice itself, it's how the practice is used, and how the practice is sold. You know, it's like, there's nothing wrong with 26 and two, hot yoga, there is something wrong with telling people, it's the only thing they ever need to do for the rest of their lives. You know, there was some excuse, like, are you getting better? Are you getting better at your practice? Are you getting better yourself? And every practice has holes, every practice has blind spots, right? Every you know, when you want to call it lineage, or style or brand, there's blind spots everywhere. So you know, a practice, I think of practice now, from the perspective of minimum effective dose, like how much of something Do I need to maintain it to the level that I want to maintain it if I'm just talking purely, like physical capacity? You know, so that's an interesting thing with backbending, right? Because there was a phase, we all went through this, you probably did, too, right? Where it's like, every day, hot yoga class, and then a bunch of back bends afterwards, and all that kind of thing. And that was what we thought we needed at that time. Right. And now I'm a little more conscious of what what I need and why. So yeah, I want to maintain a back then I want to be able to do a wheel. And I want to be able to transition in and out of wheel into other floor based movements, because that's where my passion is. Now I like to roll around on the floor and go into a wheel and transition off my elbow and that kind of thing. So I need enough of a backbend to do that. But I personally have decided that that's all that's as much as I need. You know, and then I also know that back bends, break habits, right, so like, they get you out of a slump. So back meeting practice is a great thing to do. If you're like, Man, I gotta lift my spirits, you know? Yes. Yeah. Oh, man. What about in terms of actual muscle engagement. One thing that I've started to do is, you know, just I've had to one of my most favorite things to do is drop back and walk my hands toward my heels and you know, maybe have some one pull me in and catch and now I've pulled way way back just the bridge and just my shoulders, trying to lift hips, abductor thighs and not compress it l five s want as much as possible and bend everywhere? Yes, but not there. What type of technique? And or could you explain some of the nuance of the technique you might employ when you're working? And yeah, I mean, I'll do my best to articulate it verbally. You know, first of all, like, you know, I'd never have caught my ankles. So I'm, you know, how that feel. might have just been painful or might have been exciting? I don't know. Great question. It used to be really fun. And then I remember one time I had my, my teacher, Tim Miller, he pulled me in when I was down in Miami. And, and then I couldn't walk after I went to the hotel where I was staying in and no, it was miserable. And that was like the beginning sign of like, a minimum is what I'm doing actually good for me. And you know, like that question that you start popping up. But like you just initially, like, you're at what you're talking about, where this is thought of like, all yoga is going to be good no matter what, as much as you can do more and more and more. And I don't know, where that comes from, if that's like our American culture, if that's like our, like, if we grew up with some sort of trauma, or what, where that stems from, but yeah, I like the word. I like the fact that use the word revelation, that is a great way to sum up that turning point where, what for more growth comes about? Sure. And I think these, this motivation to do more, that doesn't get us anywhere transcends as an individual culture. And I think that it's a representation of just the sweet weakness of the human desire to please our own egos, or somebody else. And, you know, if you look at life outside of yoga, we're all doing things that we have to learn from, whether they're in relationships, or in work scenarios, where there comes a time where you have to assess if what you're doing is still not just productive, but sustainable, nourishing, really filling you up in the way that you want to be filled. You know, it's like, it's almost like choosing what you're eating, you know, people reference a lot like the information economy and and organizing your attention. But and it's the same in a practice or in, you know, something that I'm always trying to recalibrate, towards is sensing in my practice, and working on details that I can acknowledge through feeling, you know, like, through through my neurology and say, you know, like, if I'm working on my handstand practice, I'm working on one simple thing, like my teachers, like, feel your kneecaps, you know, when I'm trying to transition to my baby, beginning of one arm handstand work that I'm doing right? And so okay, I feel that I feel that sensation. And then what are the other element? What are the other experiences that are offshoots of doing those engagements? And then things that are not guided by feeling like organizing myself based on angles? And then what is but then what is the sensory feedback of that? And how does it feel? And what does it tell me? So I think that the the power of these things is, okay, how does the physical practice relate in a way that is bigger than the physical practice? And how are those behaviors connect? And how do those patterns connect? And what can I learn about myself through this gauntlet that I keep putting myself through that isn't productive? Right? And right, so it's like, what because what why are we doing this like, are to feel good? Well, maybe to feel good to get insight also, and just to keep going and stay interested in the the infinite game of being human and revealing yourself to yourself? Yes, and, and, and I think there's something else really important here too, that I want to point out, which is practice is what can work it. It's problematic when the way that practice makes us feel that we've, that we're being ourselves, becomes the only way that we can be ourselves. Right? It's like, if I don't do this thing, I can't operate. If I don't do these poses. I'm not gonna feel okay about myself. So then it's like, the, you know, it's like now that's only have you only have one coat you can wear good point, but the point and I'm gathering you, you do feel a desire to be able to wear multiple, change that code. Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the most powerful things you can do in life is accept the circumstances and reorganize, which is Different than, like, lacking the discipline to stick with something. But sometimes in order to stick with something, you have to change the way that you're doing it or you have to, you know, you gotta plan better. You know, I'm dealing with that right now with this retreat center project that I'm working on in Montana. It's like, Man, I got punched in the face, you know, a few months ago, getting denied permits and whatnot. And, and so and, you know, that was that came right out of my, my blind spot of thinking that I'm doing good work and everything, you know, and people like me, and why wouldn't anybody want this? Right? But, I mean, that's the that's the beauty of a revelation because I came around, right? So like I liked, I liked the closeness of the word, the word revolve and the word word revelation, right? Because I feel like, you have to go through a revolution to get to a revelation. Because you got to come all the way around to see somebody else's point of view, you got to come all the way around to see how what you thought was so crucial and important. And essential to your identity is no longer that, for example, catching your ankles in a backbend, which was this thing that was so important to you, and you were so hard to do it, and then you did it. And you're like, Well, why am I doing this? It hurts. Especially the hurts. Yeah. Yeah. And some things well, some things that are good for us will hurt. But the but it's like, how do you respond to the hurt in a way that recognizes that you're evolving? And developing? And sometimes the answer is to simply sit with it? Yes, yes. You know, yes, it posing, you know, like, we want to be Oh, we get that pose, and then I'll be happy. You know, I get that person, then I'll be happy, I'll get this money, then I'll be happy. And of course, like, we got to take care of our primitive needs. You need enough money, right? You need a place to sleep and foods to eat, and you want to be able to do the things you want to do. But it's interesting how the practice is very, it's like a you know, it's like a devil and an angel, right? Yes. I was thinking about this just the other day. Yeah, look around this side. Look around that some of you asked me about backfilling technique. Did you want me to try to talk about that deal? Well, first, first of all, I really just enjoyed about listening, what you said is, like, when I watched your some of the footage that you have available for us to check out, obviously, well, to me, it seems obvious that you have a very technical ability with your movement ability. So it's fascinating to me to hear the intellect involved in the technique, the technical like, because sometimes, you know, when we look at this really incredible expression of physical movement and or yoga, and it looks so challenging, like beyond what we could potentially do, and then obviously, we can work on it and perfect it and, and gain some skill. But it's really cool to hear your sort of intellect behind the technique and the technical. So yes, I really would like to hear some of some technical ideas around. Stabilizing. Yeah, angst, chaos. Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate what you said, it's very kind of you, it's kind of you're telling me that I'm good at the physical part, because I don't feel like I am, which is something that I have been working on throughout my whole, you know, practice. It's very second nature to me, like, I don't feel like I have a body that was built for flexibility, or yoga or anything like that. And, you know, there's been long phases where I'm practicing with people that are just like, man, like, it's like, what, what circus planet that I land on right now, you know, so I've had to really learn to moderate my expectations around my practice, and find other things that fill me up, you know, and excite me, and make me feel good the way that that I thought that certain yoga postures would, you know, and so for me that's shifted. And, and I think that's where having some diversity in one's practice can be so powerful, so that you, you always get the dopamine hit of feeling like you check the box of doing a practice. But now, you know, it's like, some days my practice is a is a standing sort of Qigong type of practice where like, I'm standing on position and moving my arms, and I'm doing that for 30 minutes. And it's a movement quality practice, you know, and I'm not saying it's better or worse than yoga, or whatever. I'm just saying, like, for being an individual for everybody, right, like, you know. So I think that just recognizing that you have the autonomy to choose, but within the autonomy to choose is the downside of being spread too thin and not getting anywhere. And so that's the magic of the discipline of some of these classical practices. You know, like you mentioned, you practice Ashtanga, we're like, okay, you have to do this many days a week and you only rest on this day, and you show up at exactly this time. I mean, that is that's magic. That's Practical Magic that gives you a power and so Whoo, you know, how do you balance those things? You know, well said, and I think the, and I think the piece that you pointed out about, like the what the way that I think about this stuff, and it for me that really connects to the like, technical awareness. Because I am, I'm a thinker. So I like to think through things. And I like to look at how they happen. And I see really well. And those are really my skills much more than physical practice, like a physical practice has given me anything. It's given me the ability to teach better. And I think that the fact that a lot of this stuff is second nature for me, it doesn't come easily, you know, and I beat my head against the wall in my physical practice all the time. I think it gives me more compassion for other people. And it gives me more tools to help other people, you know. So that's, that's the upside of being on the long road to minimal progress. Practice. Long Road and minimal progress. Yeah. Like it. So yeah. And then as far as the back bending thing goes, I mean, I'll just give you a few ideas that I think about, you know, or that I work on. So one thing that I think you know, anyone dealing with, like back injury and back pain, I think something that's crucial, that doesn't really happen in a yoga context, is working on movement. That is more fluid, like spinal wave type movements, I think can be really useful. And also a great small dose tool to have at your disposal, when you just need like a movement snack, I think it brings awareness into the different segments of the spine. And if what we're really trying to do with back bending, and movement is just like, move the bones around so that the snow vo fluid gets excited and stays healthy. You don't need to go super deep just to be healthy. Right? Like, that's a that's a miscommunication. I think that exists a lot in yoga, that is like, well, the deeper you go, the healthier you are. And that's not necessarily true. You know, it's like, how much how much do you need? You know, that's an important question to ask. So that's one thing. And then the other thing that's like a movement perspective, and then I think there's a mobility perspective, and I look at movement, and mobility is different. These are, these are definitions that I use, movement is more global, right? Like the whole spine is moving. And then mobility is like, segmented movement of the spine, for example, where you're trying to move each piece as independently as possible, because the more that each piece moves, well, the the more that the whole concert plays in tune. So oftentimes, you know, I mean, really what injury is, is when when load exceeds capacity. So like, for example, a low back injury just means that like that area's getting hit too hard, you know, it's like you just keep keeps getting hit, and the other pieces aren't playing along. And eventually, it's just like, Yo, man, that's enough. Like, I can't take any more. So now I'm going to send you this pain signal to tell you that you're, you're putting too much pressure on me. So, you know, I think about distributing the backbend more evenly throughout the spine, which might mean minimizing minimizing the overall expression, the global expression of the post I look at, like, you know, I think it's important if you if someone wants to develop their backbend, and they want to do it in a sustainable way. I mean, you got to work a lot on the front of your hips. Learn how to engage your glutes to drive your hips, so that you can make that space. You know, I think for a long time in yoga muscle got a bad name, right? It's like, because it's dumb, no tension, don't make any tension. And it's like, it's impossible to not have tension in your body, if you're doing exercises, Yoga Asanas or exercises, right? So it's like, instead, let's put intention in our tension, so that you move bones in a way that will create space. And so hips, shoulders and shoulders doesn't just mean stretching them. It's like developing awareness of how to create space in the joint through isolated internal rotation work, and then working on external rotation so that you have the, you know, like, when I go into a wheel now, right, like, let's say I'm pushing up from the floor, I'm thinking a lot about the CO contraction of the entire back side of my body, and like pulling my hands and feet towards each other, so that the so as I pull, pull inwards with the with those, and those endpoints, that the center of the post can expand, and express itself more evenly. And then a lot of his understanding and awareness is not going to come from doing a wheel. If a wheel is hard for you, right? It's like you got to make the problem smaller. So it's like someone might need to put their feet up on a on a chair on some blocks or on a sofa and duo elevated wheel which is like oh, that's what it feels like to get into my upper back and shoulders, you know? So I think breaking things down, making them smaller, so that you can hit each piece and then Uh, you you kind of optimize each piece and then put the puzzle back together. And I think that really helps create points. Those are awesome, man. Do you have more? For me, that's good. I'm following you all the way through. You know, I really appreciate all Another big one is another big one in back bending is how you move your head to feel into the upper spine more. So I think that people get stuck in kind of two camps. One is like, you know, bring your head all the way back right away and look all the way back and that'll move your whole spine doesn't really work like that, then there's another camp that's like, Oh, be careful of your neck, right. And I usually end up in the middle, right of all these sort of like endpoint dogmas. And so I have developed this little terminology that I think is really cute. And I call it the Head to Heart loop. So what it means is, like, you imagine that there's a circle from the throne of your, you know, your spiritual heart to your third eye out the back of your head and into the backyard, it's a circle. And I think about moving my head along that circle. So as I like, when I started back, then the first thing I do is glide my chin backwards, and then start to reach my head up. And that immediately gives you this like mid back activation. And it's a nice way to work into that area without having to go into like a crazy deep posture. So that's, that's one thing that I think is, you know, really helpful. That is good. Yeah, like that. Yeah, I'm excited. Um, and then you know, different ways to use your hips and your low back muscles at the same time. I always think about a joint moving in two directions, but really being centered. So it's like, you know, options with shoulders, depending on the type of shoulder structure that someone has, you know, someone who has very bendy shoulders, and is looking to access more of the upper spine might want to shut down some of the shoulder range by externally rotating on purpose, someone like me leaves tighter in the shoulders and has a lot of thick back muscle. I am actually now when I go into a wheel, I pull my shoulder blades back and together. And I and I let my elbows open out to the sides as I as I go up, and then I get this sort of like, like, almost like opening a can effect, you know, that allows me to pull my my chest through. So it's for me, it's like the scapulae go back and up. But for you know, a long time in yoga was almost like, you know, religion that you had to what people were calling wrap the shoulders externally rotate the upper arm, you know, and and for people who are tighter, that's just gonna put more pressure on the low back and be too limiting, you know, so again, context matters. Good point. I like the fact that you're looking at things from the big picture and attempting to solve puzzle problems by examining it. And then yeah, coming up through through intelligence versus like you said, the blind dog ideas. What are some what are some other teachers? Because obviously, I remember in the Bikram world thinking there's got to be more to yoga than this. And then I started moving out what was your trajectory with other teachings and teacher practices? Yeah, yeah. So I started with a Kundalini thing, which was wild. I was like a, you know, partying 20 year old should go into like Kundalini, it was like, I didn't even look at the schedule, I'll just show up. And I then I realized that the class that I was attending most frequently was the one that was like, Kundalini yoga philosophy and lecture, which was quite funny. Because that was usually like in there, you know, was would be not unlikely that I was in there like hungover after, like a night out, you know? And then I found the Bikram thing. And then the next practice that I dove into pretty deep was Dharma Mitra yoga in New York City. So I spent a lot of time have a lot of really wonderful memories of, you know, a core group of friends that would all be there together, practicing every day at noon in his masterclass. And that was very devotional, you know, it felt like we were really part of something special. And we were, you know, because anytime you're connecting with a group of humans, and you have that sense of community is is very special. And I think that's one of the most important elements of practice. There's obviously a solitary nature to practice, eventually, we're all alone. But at the same point, one of the powers of practices the way that it brings people together, and I think that's something that people, you know, always have needed, and we still really need today. And as I've gotten older, and my practice has changed, and, you know, my events now, whether they're retreats or trainings or whatnot, like it's really as much about just like having a good time with a group of people for a while, as it is about making sure that they learn every detail, you know. So, yeah, so then then, so that was that and then you know, And then I found forest yoga with Anna forest, when I did a couple of her teacher trainings, and that was also very powerful, you know, all these practices are different, and all of them think that they're the only way to do it. And and there's magic in each one, you know, there really is. And as I was sort of, in doing a lot of forced yoga, I found Katonah yoga developed by Naveen machine and, and spent a lot of time with also with Abby Galvin, who is the you know, I don't know exactly how I would phrase it. But you know, Naveen developed the stuff. And Abby's sort of like the the other longest standing teacher of the thing, who who's very well informed and, and incredible. So I spent a lot of time with them. And, you know, what was that? And then from there, develop my own thing, you know, and I'd say if there's any yoga teacher that I'm still connected to, at this point, who I'd look at, as a mentor to Naveen, you know, I'm lucky enough to like, like, FaceTime her from time to time. And, you know, we just talk about stuff and I get to hear her wisdom. And yeah, so that's, as far as yoga goes that the trajectory, there's been a lot of other stuff in there. And, you know, the movement world and whatnot. Throughout that time, I spent some time, like a brief period with the sort of Ido portal world. And then I'm still kind of peripherally connected to that through a studio in Dallas, and a guy that called Brian who gives me programming. And I'm unfamiliar, I'm unfamiliar with that. Can you say that one again, that particular style of Yeah, Ido portal is this brilliant Israeli movements. guy who has basically done everything and has devoted his life to it. And he, they have a whole system of one on one programming that they offer and events and workshops and things like that, and it's constantly evolving. I have a lot of respect for the guy he's he's a he's a thinker, a mover and a thinker. And he uses movement as a delivery system for thought and and, you know, I don't I, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the world who's spent more time honing, very his craft, which is many craps. The irony of it is that I actually got kicked out of Ido portal movement world, which is another funny story. Can you share it? Yeah, I mean, it's not that big of a deal. I think he's mellowed out a lot since then. But I had been to his movement camp, and there was this online community. And he does not a huge fan of yoga, I think he's mellowed on his stance a lot. And I actually understand his perspective. And I think it's valid, you know, the perspective was sort of that like yoga is an inferior method of developing movement capacity. And I agree, I don't think yoga develops coordination, you know, you can't compare a yoga Yogi to like a high level dancer or, you know, martial artists or anything like that, from the perspective of how they move, you know, because yoga is mostly static postures, and I understand there's been nuances and transitions, but it's so it's so contained, that the, just the level of ability is not isn't it can't it can't be compared. It doesn't mean yoga is bad, right. So I understand his perspective there. And I think at the time he was he was very vehement about that. And so, in this movement culture group, there was a guy who posted something of a, he posted a picture, but you told them that he had drawn some like little squigglies on it. And he had taken a workshop with one of Ito's colleagues who's this amazing woman called Shy for on that I had the opportunity to practice with a few times, she's a modern dancer, is really modern dancer. And he and he wrote in his little caption, he said, you know, this is a reminder that you know, that my practice is not only linear on my yoga mat, but you know, can expand far beyond this, you know, two foot by six foot space, and it was actually quite a nice post, and, you know, jumped on there just kind of shit on the guy about yoga. And I made the mistake of sort of defending yoga as a delivery system to Edo for many students. And then we kind of got into it. And I said, some things I shouldn't have said, and I regret the whole thing now, because arguing with anyone on the internet, especially someone you respect, and you're I was in his house, you know, I'm in his in his movement community thing, you know, so it's just like, I, I'm good at words. And I went a step too far. And I regret that, you know, I do think some of my points were valid, but at that point, I was, you know, excommunicated. And I think it's a great lesson, honestly, because it's really about like, is this the right time to say these things? And is this the right forum? And how's it going to play long term like, what did it do for me to make that argument like, nothing, you know, and it's not like it was an argument where like, I'm defending the rights of some, you know, underserved community or person or fighting for justice in any way that really matters. Like I'm arguing about fucking yoga on the internet, like, what could be a worse way to spend your time? You know? So yeah, so I learned from that experience, and then, um, you know, I do still train sort of, like I said, peripheral that method with, with someone, an old longtime friend of mine in Dallas was this great studio. And so, you know, I don't know, imagine you do or will ever hear this podcast, but he does. Sorry, I said those things. Think you're great. And, you know, yeah, peace be on to you. I hear Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that story. Thank you so much. I like hearing some of the ins and outs of the challenges that we face if you're in the yoga community for a long time. And, and that's, that's fascinating. What other so now, you mentioned that you have your own style. So like, say if I were to come to one of your teacher trainings, what what are the main things that you feel are essential to convey to your students I and I want to back way, way up when you mentioned Thoreau talk meditation, I just want to make sure the listeners know what that is. Can you see I know, it's maybe Yeah, everybody knows that. That is my case. Can you just explain that one a little bit? Yeah, basically, you um, the simplest way to describe it is you you stare at a candle flame for as long as you can keep your eyes open. And then you close your eyes. And you just remain with your eyes closed until you lose the image of the candle flame, or you're, you know, or your mind starts to wander, and then you open your eyes again, and you just do it for a while. And it's great. It's like super simple Transy eyes, it's, I think it's a nice balance for the eyes with all the screentime that we have, nowadays. And you know, because it's a concentration practice, it really, it fades the exterior. And so I think it's a nice, it's a nice one, you know, I find it's really nice at night, I have a funny story from my, my, your beta teacher, who I no longer work with, but I learned a lot from him. And he's a Australian and Swedish guy who grew up in India, you know, on an ashram, like, since he was a little kid, and then came to the US. And he helped me a lot along the way. And he said that, you know, when when his family was living in India, his mother got a lot of she's very unusual looking person in that context. And she got a lot of unwanted attention. And he said that there is their teacher taught her to do Trataka and said that it would make her her the her eyes so powerful that she could make people move away from her with a glance. And apparently, it worked. According to him, you know, she started walking around, it's giving people the, you know, the evil eye, and they would leave her alone. So I think that's pretty cool. And it's cool. And it's cool. Yeah. Nice. So that's, you know, that's anecdotal. I don't, I don't know how it actually played. But I like I do like that you're talking meditation, my meditations now. Um, I do a few different things. But I'm mostly it's very simple. You know, as time is scarce, and meditation remains essential. I've really found that what I need most, and what's most important for me is just to sit. So it's like, it's kind of a simple mindfulness practice, I just need to sit. You know, there's so I think, I think, practice can become tricky, in that it's easy to reach for another technique. And while developing technique gives us more options. The ultimate option is to sit quietly, and feel things, right, because it's like, you know, you go through different things in life, some of them are quite sad. And I could sit down and magic square myself for an hour, and I would feel good, right? And it would, it would change my state. But I don't know, man, I might need to sit and observe my feelings. Without following each one down. It's, you know, true, true potential trajectory. That, to me feels really impactful at this point. Good point. Did you get a chance to practice some meditation today? Well, so I was planning on it, actually. But instead, I was working on a boiler. That was my meditation. My meditation was actually to, you know, just mellow out from the frustration I felt about the fact that what happened was actually I saw my mom's here visiting, which is really cute. And we went into town last night to have dinner with some friends and is very cold here right now, like I said, and I, you know, usually go outside before I go to bed and I think I just went outside on my deck briefly and because it's so cold, you know the door was that I have in the house, they have this nice seal where you close the door and you gotta pull it up. But I didn't do that I think I didn't do the pull up. So the door in my area house actually blew open in the middle of night. And so I woke up in my bedroom was still kind of warm, but like then that area right outside my bedroom was like, below freezing. So that kind of like set things off in the house. So I basically kind of spent the morning reconciling or dealing with the issue, which I guess you could call it a short arc or karma, right? Because it's like, I didn't check the door. So you're not gonna deal with it. So yeah, so I didn't I do. I didn't have much of a practice this morning. I just kind of like, moved my joints around as I was doing things. Understood. I hear you and there's still time in the day, isn't there? Exactly. Yeah. I'm curious what brought you to Bozeman, are you originally from there, or what was no, I'm an east coaster. I grew up in New York and Connecticut and went to college in Los Angeles. Then I lived in France, you know, on and off for 15 years, and I was running the Lux yoga retreat center there. So I first went to Bozeman and 2012. I got invited here to teach workshops. It was like, at that time, I was like, I think maybe I could live here one day, you know. And then when COVID hit it very much expedited my exit from France. And so I, I had been back to Bozeman almost every year for ongoing for workshops, since that first one. And it was actually the second the last place that I stopped to teach on my teaching tour, just prior to COVID. And what I wanted to recreate in the US was a situation where I lived at the place where I brought people for retreats and trainings and events. And I wanted a place that, you know gave me access to things that I love to do like the outside and be in nature, but also, you know, still like a town with an airport and some restaurants and you know, social life and whatnot. And where I could create a retreat center, and Bozeman just checked a lot of those boxes. And over the years, I developed a small group of really cool friends here that I love. So it kind of made sense. And they're amazing how far away out are you from opening up your retreat center, you made mention a little bit about the challenges with permits. And so what remains to be seen really, you know, right now I'm in this process where I've adjusted, what would be my re application. My application caused a lot of consternation in the neighborhood. And so I'm in the process of some neighborhood outreach to hopefully help people understand how I won't disrupt them. And, you know, so the timeline right now is I'm hoping to I've been hosting these neighborhood roundtables, you know, and it's, everything's just always worked better when you can speak to people face to face. And my hope is to reapply in the next couple of you know, in the next couple months, or maybe as soon as the end of this month, and then be back in front of the county planning commission, like sometime in February. At the same time, I'm planning other events elsewhere, you know, because it's like you, you gotta you gotta eat, you know? Yes. And, and I just launched an online school, which is great. And I'm really excited about we actually the first class tomorrow, during COVID, I did this sort of like endless run of like these 30 hour online trainings that were great during that phase, because people had a lot more free time. So what I've done is sort of condensed the curriculum, and it's now a monthly membership. So I'm not so interested in like, you know, this month is backbend month, and this month is handstand month, and by the end of the month, you'll have perfected everything, it's like, really more at the angle right now. It's like, I just want to have a community. And we practice together. And over the course of a year, nice things happen. And then if people want to train specific skills, or they want like additional personalized programming, you know, that's where we can really hone in but this is kind of like I look at this online school is the bedrock of everything else that someone wants to do, right. So it's like if someone is looking just to get their, you know, weekly yoga and mobility practice, I also send people a monthly morning routine. And there's a mobility focus every month. And so, it's, it's, it can be like, all you do from a yoga mobility perspective and give you time to go do other things. Or you know, some students are like, they're, they're gung ho hardcore, and like, they're gonna do those two classes with me a week, they're gonna do their morning routine, they're gonna do their mobility focus. And then after yoga, they might do their hand balance practice, or they might, you know, they do a bunch of other stuff too. So it's, I'm really excited about it. And I'm really excited to reconnect with everybody because we did build a really cool online community during that time and I just, you know, it's a kind of a world reopen And I was like, oh, everything, maybe it's gonna be back to normal. And, you know, and then I realized a couple of things. And I was just sort of hemming and hawing, I knew I wanted to go back to the online thing, because I just missed the ongoing connection with people all over the world. You know, and, and I think it's a really cool thing, because it gives people from all over a way to connect with each other. And also, you know, like, with me, and I get to connect with them, you know, because not everybody can show up to a retreat or a training, you know, for all kinds of different reasons. I agree with you. I think it's so cool to see how this is evolving and relations like what you said, like the absolute need to do online, then that retreat from online because it's so great to get back with everybody. And now realizing Actually, both are really cool to have the, the opportunity to both so I can find that on Benjamin Sears dot Life website. Correct? Exactly, yeah, Benjamin Sears dot life, and there's a big thing to click on the online program. I've got 70 people in there. You know, and I watched it a month ago. So I'm really like, grateful about that. It's talking about, you know, to a friend, and who kind of helps me organize some of these things. And she was like, yeah, man, it's a credit to you like, it means that you've been showing up, you know, for a long time, because all those 70 people like social media is just not that helpful anymore. You know, I continue to do it, because I don't know out of habit or just obsession, or whatever. But all but like, I think of those 70 people, 65, or people that have, were part of my previous online courses. And one of the things I like about the most is there's some people I'll never meet in person, but like, we're still connected, right. And then there's other people that like, meet each other through online. And then there's other people that practice online, that have done multiple events with me, and it's a way for them to stay connected. And then there's other people who have never been to an event. But one day, they're going to show up. And it's going to be so cool when we finally meet in person, right? Yeah. So there's all those, there's all those angles. That's so cool. I was watching some of the weather on the news this morning. And they were talking about this big storm coming through, which you're probably experiencing right now. And they were you know, like, everybody stay inside, stay inside. Just because you know, if it's bad weather and you're traveling, you're sliding off the road and making someone have to come and pull you out. It's a lot of work for everybody. So I was just thinking like it just another testament to how awesome the online element is, for all these different things, not just a pandemic, but whether and which does I don't want to go down a dark path. But make me think like, how interesting if like, the world got so hard to be in that you have to stay in a bunker, a little bomb. But let's not go there. I mean, I think brings up a point to what you're talking, what you're pointing at is like freedom. And you know, the same things that bring you freedom can put you in a prison, right? So it's like the internet and the Access to Online, it's, it can be an incredible way to access information and connect and practice or it can be a total time drain that inhibits people's ability to be healthy and happy. Yeah. And so it's like, Man that, you know, I think in times past, in some ways, it was easier to be disciplined because there was less choice, right? It's like, gotta get up and make a fire. You know what I mean? You gotta go get more of what you got to take care of the animals, you gotta like, there's just no, you know, and then you come in at the end of the day, and you just exhausted so you go to bed. You know, it's like, I don't think there were I don't think people had insomnia, you know? Like, right, it was just duplicate, tired. You know, unless you were like, just prepping for a battle the next day, or, you know, or I don't know, some overlord store your wife. Terrible thing, right? But like, you know, now it's like this crisis of choice. And so it's just so important how we organize our time. And also, you know, practice can give you great freedom. And I think that's why, you know, it's so important to appreciate all of the different ways to practice, like, going to class in a community is wonderful. Having the ability to practice on your own is wonderful. It's all great. It's just like, do you have the right tool for the occasion? You know, for me, most of my practice is solitary. You know, practicing in a studio is largely, you know, it's like, I think about it like eating. You know, one of the simplest things people can do to be healthier is just cook more, you know, and there's eating for nourishment, and there's eating for recreation. And they do overlap to some degree. But it's the same with practice. It's like there's practice for nourishment and your core practice the things that you're working on. And there's practice for recreation when I go take my friends class in town, and I'm just like, I'm really Like, I'm not there to. It's not like I don't even care what he's doing in the class. You know, I used to like, Man, there was a time go to class and get so irritated at what, what it was or what it wasn't or whatever. And, you know, it's like, you just, you have to be, you have to recognize that you put yourself in the situation and chose to be there. And, you know, if I, it's like, that's the thing, you know, I think people have to understand also about going to do different practices, it's like, you're gonna do Bikram yoga, just do Bikram yoga, and don't be so upset that that's what you're asked to do. If you're going to a traditional Ashtanga studio, like, that's the thing, like you just that's the thing, you know, that's the thing, their meal, like, the worst restaurant is the one that offers you sushi and pizza. You know what I mean? It's like, what the fuck, right? Like, let's just do it, you know. But then, and then there's also amazing studios that integrate different elements together, and, you know, pull it off, and I don't believe here's the thing, I don't believe that everything has to be kept so pure in order to be impactful. I just believe that, as practitioners and visitors in other spaces, we do have some degree of a responsibility to respect the parameters in place in those spaces when we visit them, of course, with the caveat that like, if someone is trying to tell you to do something that's going to hurt you or whatever it's like, you know, that's, you have the autonomy to, to to self regulate. Oh, man. And I like you have a great motivational vibe, Benjamin, I, I really, I've really enjoyed it. I really enjoy listening to it. I've I've thoroughly enjoyed hearing everything you have to say I really hope to get a chance to meet you. I've never been to Montana. And I it's probably a bit of a joke that when the Yellowstone series came out that everybody moved there. And then like you said, with COVID, and everything else, but I really want to go it looks so beautiful from the scene or from the video element of the scenery. It looks spectacular. It's it's majestic here. Yeah, it's really special. Is there in the essence or effort of maintaining my appreciation for you spending a whole hour with us here? Is there anything that you would like to add to this wonderful selection of ideas you've given us? Well, that was a good value to tell you what I've got going on coming up. So I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, the thing that I have now perpetually running is the online school. And so the way that that works is there are two live practices a week. One is a 75 minute yoga practice, you know, bend yoga, and one is a 60 Minute mobility practice. So the mobility practice is really like just getting under the hood, and making sure all the connections are well sealed. So and then people get delivered a monthly mobility snack, which is like a 10 minute focus on a very one specific thing. You know, so this month, we're working on lumbar flexion. Right, like rounding the lower spine actively, which is, I think, a really important thing that oftentimes gets a little bit ignored. Because if you're going round the spine under load, you're much safer in a lot of scenarios. And it just makes space down there. So it's ironically that it makes you better back then. And even though you're not back bending. And then the other What else do I have going on? So I have a retreat in Ibiza, Spain coming up in the spring that I'm going to launch publicly soon. I always give the people who came to the last event chance to book first and they've taken up almost all the spots. And then I have workshops. This spring, I'll be in New Mexico. I'll be in Los Angeles. I'll be in Dallas. And then I'll be in Europe, for Paris and then Ibiza and then this summer. Hopefully by the end of the summer, I'll have stopped running again at Bozeman house, which is my space but I'm also doing two retreats out at a 10,000 acre ranch in Paradise Valley, which is the area where Yellowstone is supposed to be the show. And it's just the majestic spots. I'm doing one retreat. That's a collaboration with my handstand coach. There's a guy called Brazil, who's a old school French handstand coach. He was a director of Cirque du Soleil like his resume is just insane. So we we bring yoga and mobility enhanced dating together. It's really funny. We also have a nice banter between us. I enjoy hanging out with him. And then the second retreat I'll do is one of my favorites. I do it every year. It's called Yoga your mom can do and it's geared towards a bit of an older crowd. You know, and my mom comes every year usually like a bunch of our friends come and it just I started that one because you years ago, my mom started coming on my retreats in France, and she's a blast to have around. And then like more of her friends started coming. And then it got to the point where I was like, Okay, it's a little hard to do like Gen pop, you know, because like people should like, all of a sudden, there's like some 25 year old yogini, who like, wants to, like sit on her own head, you know what I mean? And I'm teaching like, then the rest of the room, like, half of the room is like 70 years old. So I want to, you know, and I'm pretty good at kind of, like, you know, adjusting on the fly to whoever's there, but it's really nice also to be able to have this group of people, because one of the things that's so cool about that older group is that while they might be a little initially uncomfortable or unsure in the practice space, you get them around like the dining table, and it's just like, Yeah, it's like, the gloves are off. It's great. That's so awesome. That's cool, man. What a great mix. Dude, you're like, you're going off, you're going off. The front facing optimism must be maintained. But it's actually been a really hard, really hard year on a lot of fronts. So I appreciate the positive feedback. I understand. Yeah, man. It's all it's all in one big big soup, isn't it? I mean, it's not. I know, man. Dubois. This has been incredible, super thankful to carry Pearl for introducing me to you and opening the doorway to making this podcast happen. And I look forward to being in touch with you traveling to visit and practice. And this has just been a real a real treat. Thank you so much, Benjamin. It's been great for me too, man. I really appreciate the time and thanks for inviting me on look forward to connecting further. Thank you. Thank you, thanks. Native yoga podcast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time