Marko Mikkilä - Non-Dual Philosophy and Mystical Experiences in Yoga

Marko Mikkilä is a PhD student in philosophy at Turku University in Finland. He is also a yogi and a practitioner of Eastern philosophy. Marko has been practicing yoga for many years and has a deep understanding of non-dual philosophy.

During this conversation Marko  delves into the concept of non-dualism and its application in everyday life. He explains how non-dualism can help individuals heal from trauma and find a sense of liberation. Overall, Marko emphasizes the importance of integrating awakening experiences into all aspects of life and the need for a philosophical framework to understand and navigate these experiences.

Key Takeaways:

• Non-dualism is the belief that everything is made of one substance, often referred to as consciousness.
• Non-dualism can be understood as the collapsing of the subject-object separation, where there is just perceiving happening.
• Awakening to one's essence nature involves recognizing that we are not identified with the body-mind and that trauma can be observed without clinging to it.
• Non-dualism can help individuals let go of the story and experience uncomfortable feelings or sensations without attachment.

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Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Well, yeah, all right. This is Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin. Today my guest is Marko Mikkila. Marko is in Finland. He is a PhD student. He is a yogi and a philosopher. Let's begin. So happy to have this opportunity to speak with Marko Mikkila. And Marck, can you tell me how you were feeling today and you're in Finland? Can you give me an idea of what the weather is like for you today? Well, today it's really sunny as you maybe can see from the reflection. The sun is straight in front of me. I put I covered the window with the curtain but still it's shining really brightly. So it's a beautiful sunny day in in the winter wonderland. Yeah. You said you got a fresh dumping of snow as well, which you made mention is is unusual for this time in December. Yeah. During the last years, it hasn't been so common. When I was a kid it was still common that we had snow snow, snow cover already in in November. But now sometimes it it comes only in January. But now we have it already at the end of habit already at the end of November. So and that makes it a lot more pleasant to endure these dark months because then it's not so dark simply when the when the snow is reflecting the light. Yeah. I recently had a chance to interview Magnus Appelberg. I have a feeling Magnus is swimming today over there in Finland. Is that something that you could you could even contemplate that, or is that something that you would do? Yeah, I haven't. I haven't tried it. Well, Magnus. I guess that's it every day, as far as I understand. Yeah, I know all these Finnish people that you have interviewed because Finland is very small. So we all know each others. But yeah, I have. We have a long tradition in Finland of of winter swimming, meaning that we go to sauna which is by the sea or by the lake, and we have made a hole in the ice, and we go to sauna. Then we dip in the water then we go to the sauna. And it's really an ecstatic feeling after the dipping into ice cold water and go go to the sauna. It's one of the most it's one of the most pleasant, comfortable feelings you have can have in life. Yeah, gosh, that's amazing. It sounds so cool. Can you tell me my article a little bit about your background in yoga? How did you first get interested in yoga practice or yoga philosophy? Yeah. Well, I first when I was in my 20s, I started doing Japanese martial arts, first studied Japanese martial arts, then Chinese martial arts. And during that time, during those 10 years, I got also interested in eastern philosophy, initially like Taoism and, and Zen Buddhism, so I dabbled a bit in those first. And then when I was doing these Chinese, Chinese martial arts, I started more and more concentrate on the so called internal practices because they usually divide Chinese martial arts into external and internal so I started to do more more of these so called internal like Tai Chi, similar practices Qigong, and started reading more and more about philosophy about also some New Age stuff, but then I decided to try yoga. But first, I actually did it from a book I had this book on the five Tibetan rites, which is like deeper than yoga, and I did those for a while in the mornings, and they felt Good. And then one friend of me friend of mine asked in 2001 that would I like to join him and go to Ashtanga Yoga beginners course, like a weekend beginners course. And I said, Okay, I can I can join you. And I went there. And on the first evening, I felt very good in my body. So that's why I decided to experiment a bit more with with yoga. Yeah. Nice. And did you continue down the Ashtanga track? Or? Yeah, first it was that. So I started doing like the Ashtanga practice first, like three or four times a week as a side gig to the martial arts practices that I was doing. But then after half a year of doing it, I felt like something is shifting in me that I wanted more or to experience experiment more with, and I ski, I decided to stop the martial arts and only start doing the Ashtanga practice in the mornings, six days a week like it's prescribed. Yes. And then a few years later, I started teaching it. And at one point, I was running my own studio, or I own the studio with two other people. So we were running it together a studio into Rico, which is down on the west coast of Finland, but now now I live in Helsinki, Ghana. How many years did you have your studio? Is it tool toward cool? So he said, Yeah. Yeah. How long did you have? Around 15 years? Wow. Yeah, yes. That's a solid. That's a solid stent. Good job. And then we Oh, no, no, sorry. I think I a bit less because then I moved to in seven to 18. I moved to Helsinki in 2018. So maybe I had my own studio only a bit more than 10 years. But then when I moved to Helsinki, I continued teaching professionally, but I was working for other other studios. So yeah, I thought Ashtanga Yoga professionally, about 15 years, but I was running my own studio only like a bit more than 10 years. Yeah, I understand. Amazing. Are Do you still practice daily Ashtanga? Has your yoga and meditation practices changed, shifted or evolved? Yeah, I don't, I don't do the Ashtanga practice as such anymore. I used to go to Mysore for 12 years, annually. And I was in the part of the part of the subculture of those people who go to India annually. Yes. And, but then, at some point, I realized that doing the thing of practice sh as its prescribed, something about it is not working for me anymore. And and I realized, like hindsight that that has been the case already for years. But when you're doing it for your living as you're living, and you're part of this, like subculture, it's not always so easy to realize these kinds of things that maybe this is actually not working for me anywhere more and, and how I realized this gift or noticed that was that the practice, as such was creating too much like Rajat rajasic energy or invest in terms it was like agitating my nervous system. Often, I really felt it quite palpably after the practice is that this is not really working for it for me anymore. And then I started trying other things like I for example, try this. There's this tantric yoga tradition, not like Neo tube, I want to right away make make a make a distinction between so called Neo Tantra and classical Tantra, and this this come from classical Tantra. There's this quite popular yoga brand brand in Finland called Shakti yoga. I don't know how big it is in other places, or do you have at all in USA, but I they had like this offer that bought for 27 euros, you could go to their classes for two weeks. unlimitedly so i That was the first COVID summer so I think it was summer 20. So I decided to try them and in that they, they they also have set sequences, but they always after one to five poses. They do a Round 10 breath resting pose in between. And for me, it just felt really good these resting pauses in between. I was like, Wow, this feels good. And then I started experimenting with Ashtanga that, that I did my normal practice. After one to five poses i did some kind of resting pose, either laying down or just squatting down or any any play any any pose where you can really relax. And so like to took the edge of the practice in the in the sense that which has, I mean, the edge that had been creating this nervous agitated agitation that I didn't appreciate so much. So it seemed to work for me to start doing those resting poses. And, yeah, yeah, so I stopped at that point, that's all like stops doing the prescribed Ashtanga practice. And then I got to know this guy called Jani yard in and who is this is actually originally a student of Jana, who you interviewed. He is this extreme Astra guy. And he teaches a bit similar sequence to Ashtanga practice. But there you can. First of all, you always do every angle, it like in everything we do in primary series is mainly mainly for the Vamps, I mean, in the second series, intermediate series, it's a lots of back bends and hip openers. But in this practice that this yummy was teaching, we did always like are we do always like forward bend, side bend, twist, extension of the spine and back bend the first standing up and then associated poster and but we move in the same way with the flow of the vinyasa with the flow of the breath. So we move in this similar in a similar manner as in Ashtanga, and that seemed to work for me better. So it doesn't create when I do it, like this way so that I do every every angle and every direction in every every practice, it doesn't create this nervous agitation in me. So that's how I've been mainly practicing for the last two, three years. Yeah, very cool. Well, first of all, I love that you dedicated so much time every year, you went every year to India, it sounds like for, yeah, 10 to 12 months, sometimes only for one month. Yeah. And that's a serious commitment. That takes a lot of commitment. And then you know, but sometimes it's even harder to evolve and shift and change once having set such a solid pattern. So I love hearing that you, you know, we're open to exploring and that you've kind of done, you've practiced research, you've researched to figure out what actually works for me. Amazing, highly recommended. Yes, yeah, it is highly recommended. And also, what also affected me was that I was all the time also researching, like the history of yoga, how it has been really practiced in the pre modern times. And the concept of, for whom and when it's really central in pre modern yoga, meaning that the, the practice is supposed to be always altered according to the situation of the person, the practice, you know, what kind of face of life you're going through what what kind of stage of life you're going through, because any single practice, whichever practice you take, it's not going to work for everybody in every, in every stage of their lives. All the practices only work for certain people at a certain stage. And no practice should be done in the same way throughout your whole life. That's how I have understood it from from the pre modern yoga practice. So it was always altered according to the situation. And you have so I also adopted this like idea that you have to be always open to change your practice, not in the way that you always go with every whim. But you have to really feel into yourself and really feel is this practice really working for me in the way I want. So nowadays, I actually like saying about the Ashtanga practice that the first 10 years, I think it was more beneficial than harmful, but the last 10 years, I would say that it was more harmful than beneficial for me. Yes. I understand fully. I understand. And I appreciate you bringing it into the vocal sphere. Can Can you tell me as well Marco, what you're academia, history is and or where you are currently landing and your journey with academia. Yeah, well, I'm a PhD student in in Turku University. In the University of the town where I used to live. I've been a PhD student now for around five years, I have done all the other PhD student of philosophy, so like, mainly Western philosophy, but I tried to bring ideas from the east into the work that I do. So I like to try to combine Western and Eastern and especially Indian ideas. So I have done all the other other studies for my PhD apart from the from the work that sort of like the monograph itself. So I should write a monograph a book on something that I haven't done yet. And I'm applying for funding around eight times a years, eight times a year. And probably until I find funding, I probably will not really start writing the book, because at the moment, I work a normal full time job. So I don't really have time to fly. I tried to read something on the topic all the time, but I don't really have the time to seriously investigate stuff at the moment. Wow. Can you tell me what your day job is? At the moment, for the last one and a half years, I've been working at the refugee center as a social counselor. So when, when the Ukraine start, Ukraine war started, lots of Ukrainian refugees came to Finland, and they had to open the Finnish immigration office had to open lots of new refugee centres. And so they needed more stuff. So I started also working in that field in wanta, which is where we have the International Airport. Oh, my gosh, what is that, like? That's got to be fairly challenging in terms of the heartbreaking element of anytime people are forced to leave their home. Yeah, imagine you encounter you're encountering a fair amount of stress and nervousness about the future. Can you tell me a little bit about what that experience is like for you working in that environment? Yeah, it is, of course, interesting, when you also have this yoga background, and you tried to sort of like, bring yoga into everyday life. So it's a very intense sense. It's a it's a fruitful place to work, because you meet people all the time, who are in dire situations, and try to meet them on their level. And so like, see, the see that they are exactly like I am deep down, although I have been a bit more lucky in life, meaning that I don't have to live in a war area. Yes. At least not yet. In this life? Yeah. Not yet. Well, actually on that. No, I mean, I want to be very respectful of your ideals and and thoughts around this. But Finland obviously is very close to Russia. Do what is the general feeling for you and or for your other friends in Finland regarding the current war in Ukraine? Well, I think that's it has. People have had lots of like mental stress because because of it, because, for example, I also have grandparents who really were in the war, during the Second World War. And we had a war with, with Russia. So for example, my own grandfather was war captive, and in a Russian concentration or Soviet concentration camp, oh, my God during the war. So these, of course, these things, although I haven't experienced them, but somehow, genetically, like when you think of epigenetics, you you do inherit harsh experiences from your parents and from your grandparents. So I probably also have inherited some of his experiences from the concentration camp in some way, so many, many people in Finland have really had lots of mental stress because of the this because many of us has grandparents who were really in the war. So and there were so many similarities with the Ukraine war and the finish war with Soviet in the 40s. Yeah, man. Very interesting. And I love that the thought of that the epigenetics, epigenetics when I when I think about my own family bloodline, it you're right, it's interesting, and you did bring up the word, you know, the trauma and war, you know, like Keven if you don't realize why you might be being triggered. But you know, having listened to your grandfather and stories and like you said, even if it may be perhaps you've never even had contact with your grandfather, that you could potentially still feel that through that experience. And then you made mention that when we spoke before we started this conversation that one of the ideas that you would potentially seek funding for in writing your book for your PhD is around the realm of something that you call the non dual movement, and which Yeah, I immediately thought like Vedantic philosophy and non dualism there. Can you tell me a little bit of what what this is what the non dual movement is? Yeah. Okay, so, there has been different types of non dual religious philosophies around the world. Since, at least since the opening shots. So, the most famous against as Advaita, Vedanta Advaita, itself, meaning non dual, but then there is also for example, the philosophy that I have been involved with lately, the most is the so called a tantric Advaita movement or tantric tantric, classical tantric Advaita Shaivism, which is also non dual philosophy, but then also many strands of Buddhism are non dual, per se. And, I guess, also some Muslims, maybe Sufis, I don't know the Sufism. So well, but I, I understand that they also are more or less like non dual, I know, I guess also some, at least Christian mystics, they have a non dual view of the world and of the life. So non dual, as such means just, or the word and divide that means not to. So, it can come out in many ways. That either that you think that everything is made of one stuff. And usually in India, the thought is that everything is actually consciousness, so that there is no matter, matter doesn't even exist, but of course, we experience we experience something that we call matter, but there is no such thing as matter independent from consciousness. So that's one way of defining what like non dual idealism would be meaning idealism that a so called consciousness only view, that there is only consciousness at the end of the day, because all we can experience is consciousness, because we, by definition, cannot ever experience anything outside of our consciousness, but we also like locked in South Side our conscious bubble, so to speak. But then also it can be analyzed the word non dual, in terms of subject object is that you can experience the subject and object so like merging together or they're not being a subject observing objects, but there is just perceiving happening, there is just seeing happening, hearing happening, smelling happening, feeling happening, sensing happening, but there is not actually a subject, hearing or sensing a object. So that's like one way to analyze or define what non dual experience would mean. However, there's also in India especially the select, one way to talk about non dualism is to talk about human beings or the jivas or individual souls, so to speak, individual soul, in the video souls relation to God or the almighty or the Supreme Being. So either there is there is dualistic views, where, where there is a supreme being that is separate from you, then then you have some like a dualistic theological view, but then you can also in non dualism, it's more like that there is no separate Supreme Being but we are ourselves flux fluctuations inside the Supreme Being. So that's also one way to talk about non non dual, non dual non duality so you can talk about it in terms of like metaphysics, that there's only one thing and consciousness or the collapsing of the subject object. Separation or like in terms of your relation to a Supreme Being? Yeah. So, okay, so that's the background. That's the background. So these kinds of views have always been, or not always. But as long as at least as long as there's there has been like, written history, there has been these kinds of use in the world. But then, in the 20th century, there were some Indian teachers, of whom I guess the most famous is Ramana Maharshi. Who started like this way of teaching that he started just teaching people by just sitting in their presence, sometimes just in silence, and sometimes answering their questions. So teaching by dialogue, and this Ramana Maharshi guy, he had experienced this, like non dual awakening. So he didn't experience himself as a separate being separate self anymore. And then, often people had awakening experiences just by sitting in his presence. And then some of his students started teaching. And that created this so called non dual enrollment, which is nowadays very, whilst in, for example, the YouTube there are many, many so called non dual teachers in the YouTube, some of them are very popular and famous. Some of them are not, I guess the most famous non dual teacher would be a khatola. He's also non dual teacher, so he's the most famous one. But there are others like Rupert spyera idea Shanti. Yeah, do you do you remember the first time you recognized non dual philosophy? In your own experience, having grown up in Finland and traveling to India? Did you have an aha moment? Or did you hear perhaps like about this idea? And then maybe upon traveling to India had some sort of demonstration of somebody living according to the non dual philosophy that your mind kind of open to? Oh my gosh, that's a whole nother way of looking at the world. Yeah, I think it has been gradual guests. First, it was just reading about it. And then when you were contemplating different worldviews, for me, it was just always the most appealing was different versions of non duality. So first, I got to know Advaita Vedanta maybe. Or initially, maybe it was Zen Buddhism and then Advaita Vedanta, and then later on this classical, non dual Tantra tantric view. Advaita Shaivism. First, it was just studying about it, and it just was the most compelling worldview. And then you started doing the or I started doing the practices that were written recommend that in those circles or in those philosophies, which are often practices like self inquiry, you try to inquire into your own nature yourself that what am I really what is it that I'm really the deep, deepest, deepest down? What is my essence and then it can be just sitting, that's one practice just being aware of being aware, being aware of awareness as such, and when you do these kinds of things long enough or often enough, then you might stumble on the realisation that actually this is all there is, at least in my experience. And of course, there are often people have slight mystical experiences with these with these but the mystical experiences themselves they are not ever like the important events, but like the ultimate realization would be the way I would describe it. It's like a non phenomena are a recognition of your, of your, of your own nature. So it's like a paradigm shift in how you experience experience life. Meaning that you try to be as often as possible in in a state where you don't conceptualize things, but rather you just experience life without mental blabber just as a as a seamless whole, so to speak. So, everything in your experience be being a seamless whole is one way to define non duality. There are no There are no borders between you and the world, so to speak. How so you've had an experience of teaching yoga in relation to here is a sequence of Asana. And in the in the realm of teaching a yoga class and or that's, that's an Hatha Yoga base class where you're practicing posture, you know, you can learn something, and then you can show somebody something. And it's, I don't want to say it's easy. But there's a structure that if you know what you're doing, it's not hard to teach, if you know what you're doing something like non dual perspective, how do you teach that? Apart from what we're doing right now? And I think obviously, like when you mentioned Ramana, Maharshi, and his ability to just sit in the company of his students, and like you said, either practice silence or maybe answer questions, but it was through this dialogue process, which you said, you also had done a lot of studying and Western philosophy such as like Socratic thinking, I'm guessing you've dealt you've dove into Socrates. And and there's this idea of through dialogue, that we can arrive at a place where there's understanding. But can you answer I'm curious how this to me sounds like it would be a little more nuanced in educating or teaching about, what type of skills do you formulate in the process of if you had this goal of I want to teach a student about non dualism? Yeah, well, it's often it's about giving like verbal pointers. Of course, you can talk about the philosophy, per se, that's one way to teach. Initially, it talks about the philosophy that this is a worldview that in non duality, people believe in, so you either buy it, or you don't buy it, or you investigate it, or you don't investigate it, but if it appeals to you, then you invest, investigate it. And then if you sit with people who have had, like the personal non phenomenal recognition or realization, of their, of their like, essence, nature, then they can from their own experience game like wearable pointers, which would be like, like, for example, one some one of the most simple one is just asking, Are you aware? If I asked you, are you aware? What is your answer? Yes, yes, yeah. That's what everybody would answer. If they understood the question, they first pause for a while. And then they say, Yes, I am aware then I think I am. No, you don't think you are? You are? You know, you are? Because otherwise you wouldn't hear my voice. You weren't aware? Yes, you feel your body. If you weren't aware, you wouldn't see this computer if you want to wear Yes. Because all the perceptions can happen only within awareness. But then you might start like, identifying more and more just being the awareness, like the perceiver. That's which perceives, and one way to start, like recognizing it as such is that you, you define it as it is something that doesn't change, it doesn't alter, it's just always there in your own. In your own experience. It's always there. There's one thing that is constant in your experience or any conscious beings, experience, there is awareness, you're conscious, there is consciousness. So that doesn't change. But everything else changes like we often hear this. This maxim that change is the only constant. And that refers to the phenomenal world, that in the fundamental world, everything is always changing and nothing ever can stay, the change can stay the same. But from your experience, from your point of view, from your vantage point, there is something there, which we can call awareness for the lack of a better term or consciousness for the lack of a better term. There is something there that is being aware or like testifying the existence of all the changes that are happening all the time. Yes. That makes perfect sense. And I, I, I guess one question that does pop into my head. And you might have had some experience with this. I'd like to ask, um, I have a had a close relative that had Alzheimer's. Yeah. And the experience of watching that process. Yeah, I really got this feeling of the fragility of the mind, like when the mind like what you're speaking of where I am aware? And like you said, you answered, yeah, you are. When I when I second guess it. And I can conceptualize that. And what I noticed with Alzheimer's is there was this, that wasn't there wasn't that clarity, of awareness or self awareness? Even? And what do you I guess I know, we can say it's a disease, like a synaptic synaptic issue. Yeah. But what have you encountered with this in relation to your thoughts about because I, you know, sometimes I, I've come across this idea that say, in India, that there's a very fine line, this is just an India a very fine line between spiritual awakening and madness, you know, where there's this like, enlightenment element, but then, if you if we were investigated, we might go somewhere, and they might say, you have some sort of psychiatric disorder, we need to lock you up, you know, I don't know. What what do you what do you think in relation to what we're talking about with non dualism will mean investigate these transitions of the mind through the aging process? Yeah. My actually, my only living grandparent actually also at the moment happens to have Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's. So some personal experience, you have you have seen and felt it, yes, yeah, I have also seen it seen it happening. But first of all, we have to make the distinction between awareness and mind, like it always has been made in India. So in in European in European philosophy, it's not always clear that awareness or consciousness as such, is different from mind. But like in yoga philosophy, or Indian philosophy, mainly, there's a clear distinction between awareness and mind. So mind is part of the phenomenal world. So in mind, everything is also always changing, meaning also that you might go through the seasons of the mind, and the mind starts, for example, falling apart. But even then, I would claim that even if you have Alzheimers, there is a presence of awareness, always, but they cannot necessarily verbalize it, they cannot necessarily talk about it. But there is because one, one way to also define awareness as such, is that you have some kind of experience always, when you have some kind of experience any kind of experience, however subtle or gross, you have awareness, to also I would claim that a person with an Alzheimer, they have also awareness all the time, but they cannot necessarily talk about it. They don't necessarily have memory. So they have a like a momentary awareness all the time, but they don't necessarily know what happened five minutes ago, but they have awareness now. Now. Now, now, now, what they don't necessarily remember this now anymore, but they all this so that you could visualize it as a as a string of pearls. And every Pearl would be like your now moment. And so there is always awareness in every moment, but you don't necessarily remember the previous moments. Cancer. But that's, that's from the Yeah, from the perspective of outsiders, but then again, when you raised up this question of that, sometimes there's a fine line between madness and enlightenment, so to speak. Well, here we have to also make the distinctions between between mystical experiences and an awakening or liberation. I myself don't usually use the word enlightenment because it's a Western term and none of the Indian terms that were used about this awakening or liberation, they cannot really be translated by by the word enlightenment. So I'm going to talk now with the terms of awakening and liberation. So on the way to, to awakening and after having your first awakening experiences that the awakenings heiresses can always deepen and deepen and deepen, maybe, maybe, like infinitely deepen and deepen and deepen. And during those you can have always like, different types of mystical experiences during the summer. Some people are like prone to have mystical experiences some people have, the more, some people don't ever have mystical experiences, but they still can wake and, and it's these mystical experiences that are often bordering with some kind of madness, especially if the person doesn't have like a dozen doesn't have like a framework where to put like a philosophical framework where to put these mystical experiences, then it can go even into schizophrenia or something like that. But if you have the philosophical framework, you then can understand that okay, these are just mystical experiences, and they also always will change. So no, there is no, not any experience that we can have that is constant, but every experience as such, is is changing. And also mystical experiences, they come and go come and go, just like all the other mundane experiences like me being hungry, and they may tell me not being hungry, me being sleepy, and me being sleepy, me seeing some specific color, and then not seeing specific color anymore. And it's really interesting, that that puts the mystical experience into the realm of the material, almost like the phenomenal world that is constantly changing. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. That's a really good distinction right there. I liked that. You also brought up that if you have it, philosophical framework from which to then filter and or process or maybe maybe make sense of what just happened. So then, obviously, you're a big fan of how important n n is probably very obvious statement of how important philosophy is. Yeah, yeah. But one of the functions of philosophy is to, first of all, give you like, a goal of what to why you are practicing for. So they give you set these goals, so to speak, but they also give you understanding, because when you do, for example, yoga or meditate, meditation practices, like potentially the yoga sutra, and the third, third chapter of potentialities, yoga sutra, he talks a lot about these different types of samyama experiences, different kinds of mystical experiences, or psychological kind of psychological experiences that you can have. And if you don't have like, the understanding that these kinds of things can happen, then you can really freak out if something all of a sudden happens to you that the Western materialistic science cannot explain to you. So it is. I think, also, that's the reason why potentially spend so much time with with these experiences in the third, third chapter, because he wants to warn people that these kinds of things can happen, not necessarily, but these kinds of things can happen. So be aware. Interesting. Yeah. You made mention that you can almost classify, some folks, some people are a little more prone toward being having a mystical experience. And some of us are not prone, although we can have still in awakening, regardless of whether we're prone or not. And I know it's a little taboo to even talk about this, I guess, I don't know if it's taboo or not. Maybe it is. Do you have mystical experiences? Are you prone to the mystical experience? Or do you often watch people go oh, my wonder wonder why they're, I've never had that interesting, you know, like, what would you put yourself? Well, I'm not especially prone, but I haven't have had some subtle experience because mystical experiences that they can be really like really like. World altering a worldview altering just in one go a bit like, like, for example, when you're, if you would be under like a psychedelic, they can often alter your worldview in one go. And that's also mystical experiences experience that you have under a psychedelic under the influence of a psychedelic, but then there are also more subtle and more common, more normal, mystical experience that almost everybody has, like, for example, we sometimes are, it's really common that people for example, when the phone rings that people know who is calling before they look at the phone, that's also a mystical experience, because there's some kind of telepathic connection then with that person. So these kinds of experiences are really cool. On yes or no in sometimes in advance something that something is going to happen so called pre cognition that you know in advance or you feel it in your body in advance that something is going to happen that's also a mystical experience. Or, for example, one of my most memorable experiences that I would call a mystical experience is when I went to Rishikesh for the first time in my life, I had already gone to Mysore many times but then it was maybe my sixth or seventh travel to India, I decided, okay, let's explore a bit The North also and I went with a friend to Rishikesh, we first landed in Delhi, and then took a cab drive to Rishikesh. And then we saw the Ganga River, the river Ganges for the first time. And, and we went, and I had been, like always, usually, just before I went to India, I had to do a lot of work at my yoga studio, I had to do a lot of work just before going. So I was always a bit stressed when I first when I went to India, and I remember that time also, I had a lot of stress on my mind still when I landed in India, and then we went with my friend or after, after taking our stuff to the hotel, we went to the river Ganges. And then we rolled up our sleeves from our pants and walked into the Ganges. And all the stress was gone. My my my mind went like blank silent for minutes on end. And I was just Yes, yeah, this is awesome. Yeah. And that was a mystical experience. Oh, so that the stress just goes in one second. And why did it happen when I stepped into the river Ganges? I don't know. But something interesting happened there. Yeah, I like the way that you're explaining real time experiences. Because I think often, when we embark upon yoga, studying yoga philosophy, there's this, you know, like, something far off in the distance idea that maybe if I keep with my practices, I will attain this sort of elusive, but really intriguing idea of being awakened. But I like that you're bringing it into a momentary awareness of like, and I think like, probably, it wouldn't matter if I went to the Ganges River and India, or if I was in Finland, and I decided to do an ice bath and sauna today, that but like you said, like when you feel a shift in your body, and you're aware that all of this stress has just a part in or that you had a change a shift, that you're clumping that into or putting that into the idea or the category of a mystical experience. Because when you when you say like that, I can think of maybe a lot of different myths, a lot of mystical experiences that are happening all day, every day. Like that, that kind of makes me think a little more like, yeah, even right now to be able to talk to you on the computer through some amazing form of technology that just, we're on the other side of the world. And and here we are having this conversation, I mean, so So I appreciate that. And I think I'm getting a little bit more of a glimpse of what you're pointing out in relation to, to this, this concept or this philosophy? How How does non dualism then apply to say people that are processing trauma? And is there a way to utilize these ideas to heal? Yeah, one more thing about the mystical experience and wheezing or distinction between them so so I want to still make clear that when I make the made the distinction or say that some people are not prone to mystical experiences, it still it still doesn't take any anything away from their, their ability to or their potential to awaken to their true nature. So because the awakening itself to their essence, nature is itself is not in the same sense. It's not a mystical experience, because it's not really it's not an experience in the sense that it comes and goes. Or it's, it's not an experience in the sense that it's bound to always come and go, but it's rather a paradigm shift that can can become permanent for you so you can start to experience usually it doesn't come in one goal, a permanent experience for you experience difficulties with language, but it doesn't usually come. Usually, right away or permanent. Non phenomenon recognition for you, but it can become so in that sense, it's not an experience. If we define experience something that comes in goes like with in your perceptions or as thoughts in your mind or as feelings or emotions. So yeah, that distinction I wanted to make but then your your question about the trauma Well, what happens when people, so to speak, awaken to their essence nature is that they stop bit by bit more and more, they stop identifying with their body mind. And of course, trauma is something in the body mind. And when you're not identified with the body, mind, mind, you're not identified with the trauma either anymore. So you don't necessarily hold on to the you're not holding on to or cling to that trauma. And of course, it doesn't mean that then right away, all your trauma is just gone. But it, it makes it easier for you to start working in different kinds of therapeutic modalities, with different kinds of therapeutic modalities with the trauma. And and then when you, if you, for example, have have like flashbacks of traumatic experiences, you can stay as some, let's say, aloof observer of those experiences, and just let them go through you, meaning that you don't try to push them away, or you don't try to suppress them, or you don't freak out because of them. But you realize also the flashbacks of traumatic experiences, that they are also just experiences that come and go, meaning that you can just let them move through you, and try to experience them as raw as possible as the raw sensations without the story. Because what also happens with awakening that your mind is not like your mind is not confabulating stories all the time. So when you have any kind of feeling or emotion or sensation, if you can let go of the story, then you can also let go faster of the sensation or feeling more emotion which is uncomfortable for you. Yes, that makes great sense. You're making it sound so simple. I like it. Because sometimes some people put it this way that it's not necessarily easy, but it can be simple. It can be simple in the way that when you when you learn to just be the AWARE presence, then it is just observing what is going through you and you don't have to, you can still have really uncomfortable feelings. So it's not easy in that sense. But in a way, it's simple. Yeah. I love the analogy that you used earlier regarding when we were speaking about saying memory dysfunction, that there's a now moment and now moment and now moment as if they're a bead with a thread and moving through it. So there's some continuity, and and then just there's just not the non awareness of the previous now moment. And when you're making mention of mystical experiences, and the awakened mind, I wonder if say like, we have 10 beads in a row. And the first bead is an awakening experience, or an mystical experience that we experienced for whatever that duration of time would be. And then the second, the third beat fourth bead isn't, I'm back in that mind of like, I'm worried, I'm stressed, I'm freaking out. And then the fifth beat is all an awakened moment. And then, and so there's a little bit of space in between, is it because I know we have to be like aware of like when I set a goal. If I think I'm striving for something in the future, I'm missing being in the moment sometimes and just experiencing what is now is there would you say in the non dual philosophic philosophy that we're speaking about speaking about? Is it our goal to try to make not only the first speed and awakened experience, but also the second and the third? And the fourth? So eventually all those moments haha are all one continuous state of being awake. Yeah. So yeah, that is that that could be said to be the goal that do that awakening or being in the weight awake state meaning that you sort of like identify with your essence nature or the consciousness as such that is the is the goal and and usually it happens so that you first have like a short shift into that kind of state. And then if you keep at it, you start having longer and longer shifts into that state until it at some point becomes permanent and then that I would call liberation. So, I would also make the distinction between awakening and different like depths of awakening and then liberation is when you never ever think that what you are is the body mind but instead you always even even if you go how ever horrible experiences through however horrible experiences through your body mind is going you still don't identify with the body because usually Of course, if we feel pain we right away identify with the body. Oh, there's pain. I want to get rid of it. And usually of the uncomfortable feelings we got want to get rid of and after a pleasant experiences, we want more of those. But I guess permanently awake person, which I definitely am not. They wouldn't they they don't. And also potentially talks about it this that for them, it doesn't really matter. Is the experience. pleasant or unpleasant? They just take it as it comes. So they stopped preferring chocolate to carrots, so to speak. Yeah, fascinating. Fascinating. So there are some some there are some examples of like, one of the teachers non dual teachers that I have encountered encountered online lately is this woman called Karen trace. And apparently she had like us. I don't know the details of her past. But she has said that it is as traumatic as it can be. But you don't want to tell the details because you don't want people to like dwell over the details of her horrible past. But but she apparently don't anymore. Feel the trauma at all. And for her, like also too, for example, Eckhart Tolle like it happened, without any spiritual interest without any so called spiritual spiritual practices. So for some people, that awakening can happen without practice. And then usually when it happens without practice, then they usually because they first don't understand what the heck is going on with them. They start reading philosophy India, for example, Indian philosophy or Eastern philosophy or Christian mystical philosophy. And they learn, okay, there are also other people who have experienced these kinds of things. So this is what I'm going through. And then they either start to start teaching or don't start teaching, but also, apparently lots of awakened beings nowadays who don't teach or don't want to teach. They just live their normal life doing whatever they do. And, and, yeah, yes. Do you think it was your initial, your initial foray into philosophy and yoga and meditation? Did you have a mystical experience first that then caused you to want to do the study that you've done and the research that you've done? Or? No, no, I think for me, it was. Usually usually people when they start doing these so called spiritual practices, they either are unhappy with themselves, I was that I was unhappy with myself and I wanted change, or they want mystical experiences, or they want power over others. I mean, in the tantric traditions, there's actually a prayer that you should say every day that I want to do my practice, for the truth of being out of love of my love for myself, and for the benefit of for all beings, because usually always people start on the spiritual journey because they want because they are happy with themselves. They even hate themselves. And, of course, your practices can help with that. But it's not like that's not what they are designed for initially. Or then people just want to mystical experiences which took them through But the famous Tibetan Buddhist teacher, famously spiritual materialism, yeah, that's also a form of materialism that you just want new experiences, always new experiences, but then you get so like, stuck with new experiences. And it's not really any different from getting new experiences through drugs or, or any any other essential means. Or then people often we have these sad examples in the in the yoga and meditation world where, where a bit narcissistic people become gurus, and then they start abusing people. So often, sometimes people start the yoga practice or meditation practice, because because they want influence over others. But yeah, so that's why in the tantric tradition, we do this, this prayer that let me not falter into those three categories, but let the let me be freed of them. And just do this. Because I love myself because I want to know the truth of existence. And because I want to do this for the benefit of all for all beings. So for me, it was definitely that I was just super unhappy with myself. I was, like, socially awkward and prone to depression and stuff like that. And I just wanted to change. That's why I want that's why I started to do yoga. I didn't change. Yeah. Very cool. Marco. I, I love this discussion. I, I know to stay on time with you, I, I first I noticed could take us down a whole nother long conversation. So maybe I'll just save it for the next time. But I'm on the last chapter of cutting through spiritual materialism by trombone, tuba, and I'm really enjoying it. And at the same time, because I know folks that were studying with him at Naropa, Colorado, back in the 70s, or in 80s, that then upon hearing about the how his power kind of gotten this used, as I'm reading it, I'm finding like, Wow, what an incredibly gifted teacher. And at the same time, I'm going, but how and why did did he falter in that direction? And I don't think that we have to answer that or try to figure that out right now. But I earlier in our conversation, I was about to bring that book up someone to ask you something about that. And so I'm glad you did. Maybe that was a mystical experience there. We had some sort of, yeah, but tell me, tell me, I'm not in a rush at the moment. So if you have time, we can understand go on for another 20 minutes or so. But what why, why it happens to some people that they, when they start getting power over other people they start abusing other people is that when you get the awakening, or the awakening experience as such, that that's not the most that's not the most difficult part of the liberation process or the yogic process, but the most difficult part is is integrating the awakening experiences of your or the recognition of your essence nation, integrating it to all spheres of your life. So what happens is that with many teachers, they often have mystical experiences or paradigm shifts as wakening awakenings, Awakening's, but then they they fail to integrate that to all spheres of the lives of their live life. And and they, for example, become attached to for example, the power that they have over others and that they also happen happens in the community as we fortunately learned during the me to movement. But yeah, were you in your process of studying in India with batavi Joyce over all those years? Did you witness was it obvious to you that there was some misuse of power? Well, I actually started going there quite late. So the first time I went to India was in was it 2007. But it was the last year that pathologist was actively teaching. So I was there in January, I think it was 2007 or eight. And then soon after that, in March, he fell seriously ill and never really recovered. So that was the last winter that he was really in the Sharla teaching. And the next year it was 10 Shut out who was actually it had taken over he was still alive. He was still alive. But he wasn't teaching anymore. I saw him. Yeah, two years after the second. I mean, the third time I went to India, he was still alive and I saw him maybe once in a conference and once in the office, but he didn't say anything. thing, and then he died quite soon after that, yes, but I didn't because the only time that I was with him in the shower there was during the time when they already had the big shower. So there was like, what, 70 people at the same time in the shower? So I didn't really see anything myself. So yeah, I can't say that I saw anything. But of course, I did see the I did find. I. Well, I did see one thing when, when, actually the first time I met him was in Helsinki, half a year before I went to India. So his last tour in Europe happened the summer before I went for the first time to Mysore. And I practiced with him in in Helsinki, for one week. And it was only lead classes and always after the lead class, some people queued up and they went to thank him either touched his feet or, or, or gave him a kiss. And what I then noticed was that when he was kissing the women on the mouth, he often also patted their behind, which of course, teachers usually don't do principal in university. I have never seen a teacher putting their students on their behind. Yes. So I found that a bit odd. Yeah, yeah. Understood. I hear you, man, I hear Yeah. Well, that's good insight, that that thought crosses my mind a lot. And I appreciate the way you explain that. I think that does make sense. Man, I really, really enjoy this. I really, I really enjoyed I enjoy having this opportunity to speak with you, Marco, and hearing your perspective. And I am so thankful to Frank for introducing me to you. And I have had said I'm having such a great time meeting meeting. fins. I just finished low because you always they always recommend to other some other person though, I'm just gonna recommend. I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it. I mean, the I the process of finding folks to interview I love it, I enjoy it. And I love having conversation. Having us having never really met each other have any. It's just comes out of faith and trust. You know, we that, you know, we both enjoy yoga, and have had some practice in it. And let's just see what what what what you've learned, you know, and what you've come across. I think it's an incredible. I mean, I really enjoy this Mica. So thank you so much for taking time out of your day here. And I I would like to tell me we have a hole in it. Because that usually out at this time I'm at work. But we have a holiday because we have finished Independence Day. So Finland today one number in the six years. home at this time. Yeah. Congratulations. How will you celebrate? Is there anything like? No, this is my celebration having this discussion. Cool, man. All right. Well, I really appreciate this so much. And you know, it's funny because I let me just be really honest here i, i on I would like to schedule these podcasts to be like, two hours, three hours, because, you know, you just get down the track and you and then we break through this, you know, okay, I trust you and your feel. I feel like you're trusting me. And so it's okay. And we can chat and and then I have listeners who sometimes they go Todd like when I see that the podcast is over an hour, I go, Oh my gosh, how am I going to do this? And I recently had one where and then I released one recently that was an hour and a half. And so one of our listeners told me she goes, Oh my gosh, I can't believe like I saw it. And I was like He's killing me like, what does he do his make his for them? And then she was like, it was so fascinating. I loved every minute of it like, and so she was laughing at herself just for having that. All the stuff our mind does, you know all this, like how am I going to do this? How will I make it through and then? So I'm trying to stick to the one hour format just because like, you know, nowadays with modern social media and stuff, it's like you have 30 seconds or you have 60 seconds. Yeah, to make your point to make your claims, actually. Yeah, of course. If you're doing just like if you're, for example advertising something then it's often a very short attention span that people have. But if people really put the time aside to principle, listen to a podcast or watch a podcast. Yes. If the topic is interesting, I think we shouldn't underestimate people, they can still concentrate on stuff for a long time. For example, that isn't the most most Some popular podcasts in the world Joe Rogan experience and his podcasts are open three hours long and people watch them hundreds of millions of people watch them. You're right. You're right. Well, maybe you're I think you're giving me a good suggestion here. How about Marco? Maybe on the next, if you're open to doing this again, let's let's go for a marathon. Let's do that. Let's take the three hour journey. All right. So the all of you listening the next time you see march on on the podcast, you know, it's a course. All right, deal, my friend. It's on. All right. Well, thank you so much, Mark. I really appreciate it. Let's do it again. Yeah, let's do it again. All right. All right. Thank you. Nate native yoga taught cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know. If there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time