Janne Kontala - Is Contemporary Yoga at a Dead End?

Janne Kontala discusses the state of contemporary yoga and its potential dead end. He explores the historical development of modern yoga and its focus on physicality and individual practice. Janne emphasizes the importance of integrating yoga into all aspects of life and suggests studying the Bhagavad Gita for a deeper understanding of yoga philosophy.

Visit Janne on his website: https://www.jayananda.info/
Contact him on his email at: janne.kontala@gmail.com
Email Janne to learn more about his upcoming Bhagavad Gita course.

Key Takeaways:

• Contemporary yoga often focuses on physicality and individual practice, which can lead to a disconnect from the rest of life.
• The Bhagavad Gita offers valuable insights into how to integrate yoga into all aspects of life and engage in selfless action.
• Yoga is not just a private practice but can be applied in daily life through karma yoga and bhakti yoga.
• The goal of yoga is to overcome suffering, achieve liberation, and understand one's true essence as pure consciousness.

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Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga, and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin, and I'm so happy to have this opportunity to share this conversation that I had with Janne Kontala. And what I'm going to do is just read Janne's bio from his website, his website is jayananda.info, and the link is in the description below. And he does have a course on Bhagavad Gita philosophy course coming up starting in January, which you can find on his website jayananda.info. Janne Kontala has been sharing his knowledge on yoga since 1994. His first contact with yoga was in 1986, when reading a book ignited a lifelong interest, which soon developed into a daily practice. Since the early 1990s. Janne has studied in traditional ashrams in India and west, from early on Janne has been combining in his personal practice with the use of sacred sound in yoga in all its forms. svadhyaya, mantra-japa, and kirtanam with Asana, and pranayama from the world of hatha yoga. Considering his personal daily practice his most important source of inspiration, he has nevertheless combined the more traditional approach to Yoga with academic studies and religion, where he holds a PhD from Abo Akademi University in Finland, besides his PhD thesis, and a number of academic articles on the sociology of religion, Janne has authored the book Inner Yoga and is co founder and regular contributor in the yoga magazine Ananda. He recently finished his commentary for yoga sutra. Janne trains yoga teacher since 2005, and specializes in yoga philosophy, meditation, and using pranayama and Asana to support meditation. Yes, I had to read all that because I just was like, I kept trying to create this intro. Like, how do I culminate everything I just heard and learn from Janne, as we were speaking, and this is such a nice conversation is so full of information. And I just really enjoyed his focus and love for the practice, his clarity, and his ability to structure the teaching of philosophy, yoga philosophy, which can be a very deep and heavy subject and to an easy to digest, concise and palatable experience. So thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Frank Kappas, for introducing me to Janne and opening the door for this conversation to happen. Remember, you can study with Janne, on a upcoming zoom course that he's offering from Finland, but English, he'll be teaching in English and it's open for people that obviously you are listening, so you speak English. And if you miss the recording, or you miss the session will be recorded, so you can easily follow along at any time that is appropriate for you. So if you are wanting to deepen your practice, this is a wonderful opportunity. And I also wanted to make mention, Oh, yeah. The title of this discussion is, Is Contemporary Yoga at a Dead End? So I'm going to leave you with that. And let's go ahead and get started. Welcome. I'm so happy to have Janne Kontala. Here with me today. How are you feeling today? How are things going? Thanks, Todd. Thanks, fine. I'm having a day off from my university work. So I'm kind of oscillating back and forth between academic work and then teaching yoga. And wonderful two days a day or for both of them. So main program is to talk to you. Oh, man, well, thank you so much for for taking time out of your your day off. Because, you know, obviously you're this is does this feel like work for you? Or is talking about yoga and yoga philosophy? Your Path passionate? Oh, that's fun. Yeah, that's, I mean, okay, so normally I get paid for doing that. But main thing is, yeah, I just love it. Wonderful. Can you speak a little bit about what your academic life looks like these days? Yeah. I completed my PhD in religious studies 2016. That was on the sociology of non religion. And there's one corner the identity spiritual, but not religious, which is a little bit relevant for the yoga scene. But that was not so much directly about yoga. But right now, we started a four year research project on the world views in modern yoga, based on the practice in our reports, but we understand NaCl stages, so I cannot yet give anything. It not even an educated guess. I feel like Understood, understood. That's amazing. So you have a PhD? That's a dedicated level of study. Did you are you naturally inclined toward academia? Or is it something that kind of captured your interest later in life and then you dove in headfirst? Well, when I looking back my life, I noticed that that two tendencies, waste kind of tend to combine. One is the physical exercise, I have background and competitive sports. And from there, it was not a stretch to that, then get involved with a serious hatha yoga practice. At the same time, I always loved to read books. And so I suppose right now, emphasis is more on the academic side. But one year ago, it was definitely more on the basic, mainstream yoga sharing that I love to do both. Wonderful. is can you talk a little bit about what type of influence you've had in your heart to and or physical yoga practice? You mean? Or are you asking what my main influences are? Yeah, like, like a particular style of yoga or Okay, yeah. I read my first Yoga Book, I suppose it was 1986 or seven. So that was really long time ago, I got this book from my sports trainer, who encouraged me that this might be helpful for you. And I got so inspired by reading that book. But I had this feeling that if I'm gonna do this, I will not be willing to do it like half heartedly. I had this intuition that it will be all or nothing. So I kind of waited a couple of years before I got really involved. And then in the beginning of 90s, I started daily practice and never stopped. Well, aside from occasionally being sick, but so in terms of styles, I assume you're talking about modern yoga brands like Ashtanga Yoga. So these are main main brands I studied are like Ashtanga Iyengar, Shivananda. But from early on, I was always interested in the traditional texts, how they present yoga. So I always felt drawn towards the more kind of pre modern approach, if you will. So, I've been exploring that a lot on my own. But that does not really fall under any of the contemporary brands. Good point. I love the fact that you're using the word brands. Because that's something that I don't think we typically associate with when we look at. You know, when something I remember the first time I went into a yoga studio is a Bikram yoga studio. And I had no idea that there was an A young guard Bikram and Ashtanga Shivananda. I just thought, isn't yoga yoga? And it wasn't until later that I started realizing that there were, and then I hear often like the word style. But then when I hear the word brand, I often think more of like a from an economic perspective, I don't know why associate the word brand with. Yeah, you know, like, like, what brand Did you buy at the at the grocery market? You know, but I love that you even does use that word because it it puts a little spin on it to to when we think about yoga, yeah, to me, it's like, very, okay. I would not go as far as to say that all brands, or like, style names we have today, rooted in the logic of marketing, like, this is the way to sell because some of them got started in the counter culture era. When, yeah, amongst other things, people were practicing or doing it also for free living in an ashram and like that. So, but definitely today, it's getting more rare that somebody is teaching yoga for free. It's usually, I mean, how do you pay the bills? If you're on a studio, like, if you're not work very long, usually so. But the point, brand name is good in another way. Like, let's say you want to buy a mobile phone? Aren't all mobile phones, mobile phones? Yes, they are. But at the same time, like, I think it's fair to tell the student customer that by seeing the, what I call a brand name, you also get some kind of idea, what will it be like, and it's easier to find a style that appeals to you. That said, from traditional perspective, 99% of today's brand names fall under the category of Hatha Yoga, because the main tools are physical exercises, which is different from karmayoga, where the main tool is the work that you do, and maybe service in society. And then bhakti yoga were the main tools of the more religious nature. So from that point of view, all of this that just Hatha Yoga, yes. Interesting. Are you when you say you have a daily practice? What does your current daily practice look like? Or maybe if we don't think of it from like, a visual sense, what type of what are you aiming to cultivate when you do engage in Hatha Yoga style practice, today? Or today? I would say, for the last, I think, 30 years Hatha Yoga has, in fact, been in a supportive role in my yoga practice, my main practices meditation, and I spend on a regular basis more time on meditation. But I find that Hatha Yoga seems to be designed to take care of the body, while it's at the same time supporting meditation. So that's how I see this to relate to one another. Excellent, great point. And in relation to your meditation practice. Have you taken the track of one school and sticking with one school? Or have you experimented with different? I hesitate to use the word brand in the realm of meditation? But I guess it potentially could apply. But um, is there a certain brand of meditation that you have gravitated toward? Or is it something that's coming more from your own personal experience? And are you trying to leave a beside any preconceived notions of what meditation should be? I am following traditional linear bits of Parampara. And I've been initiated to that so it's definitely today very much. Within one, two, traditional path, if you will. But early on, I did indeed experiment with all sorts of different styles to see what works. And also like, before getting fully committed, I still think it's a good idea to explore that. That when the then decide, okay, I'm gonna do this. Yes, you have something to compare with? What do you agree? I do? I do. Great answer. Are you open to sharing what specific lineage you are initiating? Or is that something you'd like to keep private? I'd like to keep that private. If you don't, I appreciate that. No, I totally understand that. That's why I wanted to ask, because I feel like I get that. So thank you. And then I'm curious, I'd like to start to we came up with a subject for this conversation, so we could direct our path. And I guess, as a very simple line that you recommended that we could go down? Is, is contemporary yoga at a dead end? And when you said that, I just thought, Oh, this is going to be great, because that's a great question. It's a really good question. But I also want to make this conversation, an advanced one, but also a very beginner friendly one. So at times, I might ask you to help clarify a few things. So on that note, can we start off with? How would you distinguish the difference between, say, contemporary philosophy, contemporary yoga philosophy? And if I use, I don't know if the best word to use is ancient? Or maybe, if we could say modern, pre modern, thank you. Yes, that would work. Great. So how so I'll reframe the question. How would you define either contemporary yoga with pre modern yoga? Yeah. Okay. So contemporary yoga, and its philosophy, particularly. One would actually have to do a, like extensive fieldwork to figure out what's going on. But we get some idea just by taking a sample reading of the popular books that are published. So I would say one of the really like, recent developments is starting to combine ingredients to Yoga with traditional speaking have nothing to do with yoga. So I don't know if you heard about something like Sona yoga, or Beer Yoga, or this sort of stuff. So you bring in something in order to make it interesting, but that something doesn't actually belong, it's kind of a way of packaging, yoga. So that seems to be a fairly like recent phenomenon, but then going back in time, so time travel 130 150 years back in time, then we enter the era of when modern yoga starts taking shape and developing. So to give you some background, yoga, as we know it today was a really bad in a really bad shape in the beginning of the 19th century. So there are reports that, like parents in India or South Asia, might tell today's children that you need to behave, otherwise a yogi will come and pick you up. You know, so a scare story. That's the kind of image you would have about your gaze that okay, that's kind of the last thing on your list of pre priorities when you're figuring out what your children would be doing in terms of occupation. Yes. So I don't know if you're familiar with the late medieval age and then until the greatest occupation of India. So there was this fate of the militant Yogi's, organized as armies having considerable political and economic influence. So that was that was going on and originally, probably that started as a way of self defense. But then things seem to have gotten at least in some corners a little bit out of hand. So you always were respected and feared because of that. Yeah. So Yeah. Nick, can I interrupt you? I'm just real curious. So you said, like in this medieval yoga time period, that when the British were coming in for occupation that the yogi's formed some sort of like militia or a candidate that did that before that was during the Muslim government. So at that time, apparently, there was a need to get organized just for self self self defense purposes, because Yogi's might be persecuted. So if you read one of the early or late medieval like Hatha text Hatha Yoga, Pradipika, how does it start, one of the first suggestions is, please find a kingdom with where you will not be persecuted because of your yoga practice. So find a peaceful embeddable and kingdom. And indirectly, that's telling us that that was not the case everywhere. So anyway, so that's the background, but that got finished by the brightest. So, you know, five firepower to finish that off. And after that, apparently, at least some of the yogi's who were still alive, would then sustain themselves as beggars as doing you know, standing in the street corner and laying on a bed of nails, you know, doing this kind of acrobatic stuff in order to collect donations. So, from both points of view, one perspective being that yoga is feared, and the other one that this is not a respectable profession, from the like, normal societal point of view. So from both points, points of view, it seems like yoga was really having a low reputation, but that all started to change towards the end of the 19th century, because now what starts emerging is this kind of national independence movement. And part of the greatest propaganda against India, Indian ethnicity was that Indian man is a weak and, like, effeminate and no match to the European stronger, and in all, always superior men. And from this starts emerging, this kind of, okay, we need to change this, but we need to change this with our own methods. And now hatha yoga asana becomes handy. Indian wrestling, stuff like that. So this is the beginning of the development that yoga is being done in order to look really strong. To the outside. Yeah, that's fascinating. That's so fascinating. Yeah, I have not heard it from that angle. It makes perfect sense. It really does. That actually makes perfect sense. Yeah. That must have influenced quite much how yoga is done today. Because simultaneously with this development, also, photography started to Neverland. So suddenly, it becomes possible for pretty much anyone to take high quality photographs and use them as an illustration for the book. Now, when you take a photograph, if you ever read one of these pre modern yoga books, if there are any drawings, they're very, like, you know, when children are drawing people, like very abstract, you don't see any details. You don't see how the person looks, whether it's a kind of, you know, having a strong biceps and like that, this old says is when you have photographic, then you see the details, and you better look good in the photo. So that must have influenced yoga, like, probably not deliberately, but the image that yoga is assessed by how it looks to the outside. Yes, so we have these two influences from that. That is so fascinating as well. You're right I mean, because now there's this you know, with obviously social media and everyone having a phone in their pocket, a camera. And all the talk these days about demonstrating Austin is that really good representation of yoga to constantly to show pictures of ourselves? was you know, bending and moving and stuff like that. And but fascinating to think about the the improvements or the development of photography in around this time as well, in conjunction with what you're saying with this retelling, let's let's change the propaganda and retell it from an angle of strength. And so what an interesting combination of events all at the same time to kind of bring us to where we're at. But I'm sorry, I didn't want to interrupt. Thank you, I want to keep hearing please know this fascinating. But there's another strand of the development of modern yoga, which is of the more ideological kind. So we have this person called Vivekananda, who was who participated in United States in a congress of world religions, to speak for Hinduism. And he decided that the offense is the best defense. So rather than appealing that, wouldn't it be nice that also Hindus can have a place in the community of world religions, he kind of reverse that everyone can learn something from Hinduism. But then he also made a strategic move, like because all academic students of Hinduism know that it's not a one religion is kind of umbrella. And under that umbrella, they are athletes for these things, religious traditions, if you will. But we're gonna make the strategic move that let's boil it all down into two simple formulas. So one of them was to take as the ideological exponent, philosophical explanation about what Hinduism is all about from Shankara Advaita Vedanta, the monistic Vedanta. So if you ever read that Hinduism ultimate goal is atman becomes one with Brahman, then that's where it's from. So this like ultimate goal is to achieve oneness with everything, okay, that that thing. But then, in terms of practical application, Vivekananda then decided that the real science of spirituality is best expressed in Patanjali is yoga sutra, and particularly, they're in the form of Ashtanga Yoga. Now, now, we are coming to the topic at hand, like the dead end of modern yoga, because here we have one strand, which is emphasizing this needs to look good. And, you know, everyone needs to see how I look when I do yoga, this kind of physical and projecting it to the outside approach. Now we have this Vivekananda 's ideas, which then become part of the ideology of modern Yoga. But both of the strands like both this monistic Vedanta, and yoga, sutras, Ashtanga Yoga, these are systems which are originally designed for full time, ascetics, people who, when they start their spiritual practice, first day thing, first thing they do is to give up their address, friends, job and hobbies. And then after that, that's the morning till evening practice for decades on end, and this is, this is not a joke. This is this is documented. That's what that's what people really need. So now it's fascinating that here you have this ideological strands of modern yoga with this role that in this very world denying ascetic approach, then you have this kind of muscular, very physical yoga mats really looks a little different. Like I hope everyone says, How I look when I'm doing yoga. Yeah. So if it sounds like these are not a match, then you heard, right, they're not a match. There. But what both of these trends, the ideological strand, and then this kind of physical emphasis on yoga, there's one thing in common in both strands, namely, yoga is mainly seen as a private exercise that you do on your own time in your own room. And then when you finish your yoga practice, how you integrate that in your life, maybe you reduced your stress level, maybe you will be more peaceful and more fit to do everything else. But there's a kind of disconnect. This is my yoga, and then it's life outside. And that's what I mean with the dead end because all systems of the organ recognize ultimately if you want to take yoga all the way at one point you need to figure out how to do it like all the time, not only on your private time. And for that reason, I feel the main strands that have influenced development of modern yoga, kind of disconnected from what most most people are actually doing because most practitioners do have families and jobs and they're participating in the society. That's not a problem. From your point of view. It's just that you need different set of tools. Great point, do you feel like what Vivekananda did in his strategy of bringing these two main strands? So you said I Advaita, Vedanta and Ashtanga Yoga and or yoga Patanjali? Do you feel that that was a brilliant move? Or do you feel that under the element of looking back and, and having the wisdom of hindsight, the ability to make hindsight, do you feel like, maybe if he could go back and redesign it, he would have changed that that formula. I think what it did was, in fact, that brilliant, and the evidence for that is that people were, in fact listening to what he had to say. And it's hard for us to understand how it must have looked in the 19th century, that Westerners actually all ears when a person from India and Hindu background comes and start speaking. So whatever he did the the historic based on the historical historical record, that was a brilliant move. But at the same time, this is only presenting a particular corner of your whole toolbox of yoga contents like so much more, which has kind of been lost to sight, because we are going to this presentation has taken the front seat. So even today, you can go and pick up like any, like contemporary yoga, and if there is a section of philosophy is probably going to tell you yoga ultimately means union oneness with everything, or with the supreme or whatever. And then the system of yoga is explained as the eight limbed limbs of Ashtanga Yoga, right? Yes, yes, I believe that you would find that in more than half more than 50% of the books Grenda. So this is the background for it. But this is not really helpful for people who are not going to leave their jobs and families and hobbies. So is it just not a mat? It's useful? But there's just one corner of Yes. You know, that's so interesting, because it seems to me based on what you've said that what Vivekananda did was a very pivotal moment and how popular yoga is today? Like how did not then present it in a way such that he did, there's a chance you and I might not be practicing? Or, or might not have even gained any exposure whatsoever. And so I'm curious, what, when, when you add, so in your studies, what is a philosophy think would be a little more appropriate for the householder that wants to gain maximum benefit from yoga practice but is unwilling to become an aesthetic a monk or nun? renunciate? Yeah. So first of all, I want to reiterate that I don't think everything he did was brilliant. But he became a paradigmatic example, that all future teachers would necessarily emulate. And I believe yoga philosophy and yoga practice needs to also be applied based on the time, place and circumstance. And so perhaps the future generations of teachers might have benefited from thinking deeply like okay Vivekananda had perfect solution for his moment in time. But here we are now, more than 100 years later. So the question is now that what would be appropriate approach in terms of yoga for somebody who is engaged In the society, and here I find Bhagavad Gita is a very interesting text. So I believe most yoga teachers today if you asked what are the three most important yoga texts, you would place yoga sutra, maybe Hatha Yoga Pradipika and Bhagavad Gita on the list. The way someone won't be forced that will then vary based on the person. But Bhagavad Gita has this interesting starting point where Arjuna or was going to lead his military forces in a civil war. He has a nervous breakdown. And then he asks his friend, Sara driver, Krishna, can you please teach me can you be my teacher in the situation because now, I'm not sure whether I should do my job in the society, which in his case, happened to be his professional, military man. Or should I rather walk the path of yoga, which means I essentially a walk away from here and live, a renounced life? These are my own words. But the commentaries of Bhagavad Gita lift up some points, which really seem to indicate that Arjuna is saying, it wouldn't be better for me to live by begging than engage in this battle. And live by begging for somebody who is a royal of linear it's that can only be one mean one thing, namely, taking sannyasa becoming a monk and becoming a renounced yogi. And then Krishna really spends the rest of the book it says 18 chapters. So first chapter is a background. But then the last 17 chapters are essentially just one really long argument that it's not that you make progress in yoga, by turning your back on society and life. Rather, the crisis situations in life and society are the best places to practice yoga. But we just need to broaden the idea that yoga is not only something you do on a yoga mat, when you have a peaceful environment, because Krishna explains the whole spectrum of yoga, including karma yoga, and bhakti yoga. And these two approach is something that you can in fact, do within the society while you are doing your job or interacting with people. Yes. Can you explain a couple or an example or a few examples of how you could apply Karma Yoga, say, when you go to the grocery store, if you had to go to the grocery store today is what would be something that comes to mind as a way that if you consciously said, you know, I'm gonna go in the grocery store today, I'm going to try to be a karma yoga practitioner. Yeah. So the basic idea of karma yoga is that same obstacle that Ashtanga Yoga will try to overcome by the process of meditation and Samadhi, namely, ignorance, which clouds our understanding about reality, as it really is. The same ignorance just takes a different form when we go to grocery store, or when we go to work. And they're the same ignorance manifests in the form that I'm doing something basically, because I need to get some kind of result out of it for myself. So I am the enjoyer of my own actions, activities. So the Karma Yoga basic idea is that activity itself is not a problem. But it's this idea when I've done this, then I get my reward. And so that's analyzed as being an ignorant way of acting. Well, then I'm doing it all the time. But it's uh, but anyway, in a deep psychological sense, I think this is very easy to recognize, now bringing in the contemporary term mindfulness. Now, Mindfulness means being present in whatever you do. Now, when I'm engaged in work, I cannot be fully present. If I'm while I'm doing something, thinking what we like Get out of it. So the idea of detaching one for sale from the results, does not mean that okay, I just don't care, it should ideally mean that now, the activity itself is sacred. This is my opportunity to contribute to the whole, rather than thinking, the whole exists for me, No, it's my, my service and my task to contribute to the benefit of the whole world. And then within karmayoga, when you go to grocery store, then you might think, okay, I recognize that I am somewhat attached to the results, I really think that when I go to work, the salary belongs to me. Now, recognizing that it's a first step, the next step is what do you do about it. And there are different ways of starting to work with this attachment that the rewards belong to me. One central method, which is applicable in grocery store is called the Yaga, or sacrifice. Now sacrifice, I like to analyze it in terms of making sacred sanctifying something. So rather than thinking, whatever I buy in the store belongs to me is for me to enjoy. Now, I'm thinking, I will buy it. But I will try to figure out how I can also find a way to practice detachment. So about bhakti yoga point of view would be, you go to your kitchen, you prepare, prepare a meal, and then you offer your sanctified maybe, or I suppose many religions have this idea that food can be sanctified by offering it to God. So that would be like a more bhakti yoga kind of approach. There are other ways of doing sacrifice, one would be you just invite people to your place to eat rather than this is this whole meal is for me. Now. Let me share it with others. So this would be some obvious means how you could bring the idea of karma yoga, when you go to the grocery store. Then you can add another thing, which is the yogic idea about sattva rajas tamas. So sattva refers to clarity of mind, seeing the benefit of our mind, rather than just narrowly someone at the cost of others, stuff like that. So bringing a sativa to the grocery store would mean one would favor like, ecologically and fairly produced products. One would favor non violent ingredients and stuff like that. And that would be a good way of bringing yoga in the grocery store. Yes. Great answer. Well, well explained. I really appreciate that. Do you? So can you continue a little bit more about Bhagavad Gita in relation to I often hear that it represents or the potential of synthesis of many different say, types of yoga in relation to you mentioned Karma Yoga and bhakti yoga and another one Jana yoga, can you explain Jana yoga, and how it does now come into or how Bhagavad Gita represents this concept? Yes. So in the beginning of fourth chapter, four chapter begins by Krishna, addressing an unspoken question by Arjona. So what he's saying there is that I am explaining this system of yoga to you now, because it has gotten lost due to the influence of time. It used to be the case that this yoga was being taught to the leaders of the society. But now it's lost. So when Krishna is saying yoga is so lost, what kind of yoga is lost? It's not that the Yoga with the idea that I'm going to do this alone in the Himalayas, by renouncing the world was lost. That was in fact one of our Jonas ideas that yoga really means like doing it alone in a private place. So and when you read Mahabharata of with Bhagavad Gita is a part somewhere in the middle of Mahabharata, you'll find this ascetics and Yogi's and mystical persons popping up time after time. I, so it really seems like this approach to yoga was not lost. But what was lost is how to apply yoga in the society, in the midst of the stresses and crisis and all that. So while Krishna saying, okay, that's last, I'm gonna reestablish it. Now, by speaking, this dating, at the same time here really presents all styles of yoga. So it's going to deal with so we started with Karma Yoga already, then is bhakti yoga, which is yoga of devotion to God. So that would probably overlap most with what we today used to associating with theistic religion. But then Guiana yoga, or the knowledge yoga. Now, again, a yoga subdivides into two sections, Jana means knowledge. So it's a system of yoga, which is meant to bring about a correct perception of reality. And there are two basic means for that. So one is the intellectual means and the other one is the meditational means. So the intellectual means is by studying wisdom texts, contemplating deeply on what they are saying about the reality, obviously, starting by first learning it by heart, but then contemplating, and that contemplation will then eventually become a kind of constant activity, which we all it's really a yoga of thinking. So you are replacing your thoughts with a new set of thoughts. And that will then lead to a final ability to discriminate between self and the mind. And then you can take a step towards self realization. Now there is another means towards the same end. So that's emitted yoga of meditation in Bhagavad Gita commentarial tradition, that's called the Yana yoga. So the word Jana just means meditation. And when it traveled through China to Japan, it became general. So Buddhism Zen meditation essentially means meditation, meditation. So, Sanjana, yoga is what you but the basically patterns are is Ashtanga Yoga, sit down, and stay still spend the next eight hours in deep meditation like that. Yes. Is that why sometimes we'll hear where I've heard that. Jana Yoga is the most difficult path of yoga. Would you agree with that? Or is that just a nice easy thing for us to say is yoga practice? Oh, it's like, No, it's true. Of Yana yoga, but also the Ashtanga Yoga, the particle, the meditational aspect of it, both major brands of Ghana yoga, really difficult because they they later or require the practice. And I mean, when you want to go all the way, it's the historical record is quite seems to agree that, yeah, it's only possible if you fully focus on that, that has to be your only project in life. So for instance, Jana yoga tradition of Sankara Aveda Vedanta, which we discussed the monistic tradition atman merging with the Brahman. I recall reading that requirement in that Linnaeus originally, not today this but this is not discussed for obvious reasons. But originally, it used to be the case. Only a male practitioner cannot see perfection only by becoming a monk ladies at the age of 12. So, I mean, yes, you get some idea. Like who's gonna do that? I've missed that boat. Like that was a long time ago. Yeah, good point. Oh, man, it's so fascinating. Well, first of all, thank you for explaining and really taking the time to to watch a study all this and then be able to talk about it fluently. It's so fascinating. So when you say all the way because like you mentioned of if I want to go all the way so that, to me implies that They're either a I haven't gotten there yet. Or it sounds like in relation to this dead end idea. Maybe I need to start to just come to grips with the fact that I and I won't be able to go all the way, but can we define what all the way is? Is there is there a way to define what that implies or means? Yeah. So, so far, we have been discussing yoga philosophy and practice from the point of view of some of the key texts such as Bhagavad Gita, and yoga sutra. And then the contemporary developments beginning with Vivekananda. Like that. Now, when you take a look at the broader yoga tradition, historically, in terms of out that there is not only one philosophy, or one system, or one idea about what you're, ultimately is all about. So for instance, the word yoga has three meanings, which are really distinct. So the word yoga, in yoga sutra, it means the practice of Samadhi. So practice of shutting out everything else except one thought in your mind. And finally, even that, so that's the object was Samadhi. So yoga is defined primarily as a means of concentration. And then only if you are not able to do it, then you can add some more stuff. So kriya, yoga, ashtanga yoga, yoga tools, if you are not there yet, but so the word yoga in traditional sources means practice. That's one meaning. Now another meaning, which is really different from this one is yoga, when it's being used for the goal of the whole practice. So the word yoga in that sense means tends to mean, union or connection, where the individual spark of consciousness gets connected or unified with the totality of consciousness, or gets lovingly united with God, that would be the bhakti yoga approach. But that's second meaning, like yoga means union, yoga means connection. But that's not now we are not talking about practice. Now we are using the same word in a totally different context. Namely, how does it look when it's all over, and when you have gotten all the way? Now there is a third meaning of the word yoga. And it refers to a particular philosophical school within South Asia and philosophical tradition, particularly on the Vedic side, which is today known as Hinduism. And that's rooted in the Yoga Sutra of Patanjali. So the same word yoga means three different things. To get started with any discussion about yoga. I find it's a good first idea to clarify, are we going to talk about yoga as practice yoga as the goal of practice, or yoga as a philosophical school? Okay, so now, let's talk about yoga. In terms of the goal. Yep. So, yes, what does going all the way mean? Now, I have given this quite some thought, because there's so many schools, so many linear ad sets, and they are rooted in these different if you will, sub religions within the larger umbrella of Hinduism like separatism, service and waste, innovation, automate of errand Yoga Sutra of Patanjali. So I've been trying to figure out what are some of the common features which all of these different strands would agree upon? Despite the many, many differences. So my conclusion is this. All these various trends of yoga minimally, and they were to overcome suffering, to leaves the experience of suffering behind for good, okay, that's one thing. Now that tends to always also entail the idea of, of being freed from the process of rebirth, because rebirth means rebirth, and who wants to die. So that seeming liberation from that would be a very important contribution to becoming free from suffering. Now, a third component that I have identified, which seems to be there, even though articulated in different ways, but in some form, that going all the way would means that the practitioner who is at that point no longer up practicing it because one has gone all the way understands the deepest layer of oneself, like, who am I really? Like, as opposed to what are my fears? What am I desires, what kind of expectations are projected onto me by others from the society. But now distinct from all of this, what is my deepest essence is often articulated in terms of the unchanging witness, pure consciousness, something or someone who is witnessing what is going on, in this drama that we call life. So the basic idea behind this would be that we have a vehicle to move around with consists of a physical body, and the mental mind with the psychological instrument. But behind these is the passenger with the unit of pure consciousness. And to understand that however it is articulated seems to be part of all the major traditions of Yoga I have discovered so worth. That's awesome. That's a great synthesis. That's taken a lot of work, I'm guessing. Yes. A lot of a lot of study. Yeah, but I'm still learning so different. Yeah. Fascinating. And that is in relation to this is this is the common thread in those three different definitions of yoga, or is that just within one of those three helped me? Yeah, okay. So, things get a little more complex, when we start talking about the goal of yoga practice, because there are strengths of yoga with describing that the goal also with the word yoga, so they are using the same word, but in one context, they are using the word to refer to the practice. And another context, they are using it when they are talking about the goal. Okay, yeah. So this is the case in some texts, but not all of them. So now, coming back to the school of yoga, which is based on patterns always work yoga sutra. Now, that book articulates the goal of yoga in a different language. Because it's a common misconception that someone who is the goal of your rights, not someone who is permanent, is impermanent, somebody gets interrupted, so it's not the goal. If it becomes a permanent state, it's no longer called Samadhi. It's called Kaivalya. Now Kaivalya means being aloof from everything, that is not one the essence of oneself. So I like to boil it down. Like you want to understand what Carvela means. It means being a low from ignorance and selfishness. How about that? Yeah. But interestingly, Kabbalah means like, isolation, separateness, so it really sounds different from yoga as union, you know, so, yeah, so, like. That's why, when I said that, there are many, many different schools. And so far discovered, this seems to be something which is common for all of them, but they have differences. So how yoga sutra talks about the perfection is quite different from how Sankara Advaita Vedanta would talk about the perfection, which again would be different from for instance, Tirumalai Krishnamacharya has Lynette's which is going back in time to Rama nodes and 1000 years back is talking about the perfection that sits above the limits. So union with God, rather than becoming one with God, these are different ideas, because union means a dynamic state, a loving interaction, where there's some kind of feeling that I maintain my individuality in order to interact with the supremely wonderful being. So these are three examples about how in all of these cases, the goal would entail that suffering is over for good. But then how does it look in the post liberated state, in from one perspective, just being totally alone? free from everything that does not belong to the program. No in analysis scenario that's Shankara like getting absorbed into the totality of everything with scope Brahman, the impersonal manifestation of the supreme or the Rama notice and Krishnamacharya splenius with me is like perfection means perfection of love, which means interaction. That is good. I, I like that you made some distinction between union and relation to aloofness versus some sort of like interactive process that's, that's still occurring. Does the aloof version mean that I would be unable to operate? As on the level that I currently am? In my day to day world? Like, would I need someone to take care of me? Yeah. So this is a very fascinating question. I cannot give you a short time. So you will get like semi long. But okay, this Kaivalya being isolated from ignorance and selfishness, it has occupied the minds of the students of the Yoga Sutras to quite some extent. So does it mean that I'm alone from everything? Meaning, like, literally everything, by cease to interact with the environment? Something like, you know, if you're stressed out, there's a lot of traffic, a lot of noise. It can be a nice thing to just close the door, go into your room? Let me be alone for a while. For a while, yes. But like forever? Would I really want to do that? So that has been pointed out that does not necessarily sound like the most attractive option on the table. So nevermind suffering and what if I will not be able to interact with others, then? What's the point? So now, I have submitted two articles on yoga sutra. They are not published yet, but I can share what I discovered, through going through it from two different angles for the purpose for two different articles is that you always seems to keep the door open to a scenario where somebody who has received Kaivalya or liberation will still be able to interact with the world without being bound by the world. Now, since I suspect at least some of the listeners are familiar with your ultra, I will give some information and if you're not then just happily ignore everything I said. But one thing is yoga sutra, famously introduces the idea of age for, or the supreme being God, literally controller, or Lord, as a tool, like, Okay, you cannot say the perfection of yoga by surrendering to God, that's one means. That's okay. And now the question arises, like, from my point of view, if I get absorbed in thinking of God, then that's for my benefit. But what about from the other side of the desk? Is somebody on the other side who cares about me? So the classic traditional commentaries to yoga sutra, explain? Yes, indeed, God is for is really attracted by the idea that somebody is voluntarily turning to him, and willingly helps that person. Now, all conceptions of God within yoga point to a entity who is like permanently liberated, like totally aloof from the process of suffering and ignorance. Now, if God is an entity who is permanently on a liberated state, and nevertheless wants to make himself available to the practice, and then that essentially means that it's possible to be liberated and still act for the benefit of the world. Hold. Now the fourth chapter of yoga sutra then elaborates the same idea from the point of view of a super advanced practitioner, who is now coming towards the end of the road. And he's talking about something which is like, Okay, this is really, outside of the everyday reality was talking about the concept about constructing a mind. Constructing a mind means we all have a mind. And usually our minds, at least occasionally disturbed, now constructed mind of a perfected Yogi is a tool, which says, does not have even a glimpse of restlessness, ignorance, selfishness, is just a tool to interact with the world. And why would one do that? Now, one thing, why one would do that is to share the teachings of yoga, because now this person is really the one who has something to share. If it was the case, that once you had saved perfection, there is no way you can communicate that experience with others. That would mean that all the teachings of yoga we have of no value, because they are not coming from a place outside of ignorance. So if the teachings of yoga are influenced by ignorance, it means we cannot derive any ultimate benefit by following them. Whereas if it is the case, that after at saving perfection, they're still a means by which you can communicate your realization with the world without being bound by the world, so to speak, then that kind of solves the dilemma. And so these are two of the ways how yoga sutra is at least indirectly hinting at the possibility that you can be liberated, but you can still interact with the world for the benefit of the world. While said, there's a third point, the third point is that yoga sutra is taken as an author a tentative text on yoga. Why is that? Because the assumption is, patterns really understand things as they are. Okay. Now, he wrote, he wrote the text. So if you accept that there's a liberated person, and the text is there, he did it. So it means it must be possible to do that. Even after assuming liberation. Great point. Great point. Never thought about that. Huh? Almost like this ability to access that liberated state, but also not need to be taken care of, like not so out there that you can actually still function. Which you're right, that sounds a little more attractive. It's so fascinating. yoga philosophy is like, it's an it's so deep. I mean, definitely, for a little while there. I was like, wow, this is almost like mental gymnastics, like, following everything you were saying. But at the same time, I feel like you did a great job of keeping it structured in a way where I could follow you, I can understand what what you're keeping it like organized, like the ability to convey all these different concepts to where I can, I can follow you. So well done. Because it's such a there's so many great and deep concepts. I feel like you've been able to boil it down into the essentials. In relation to to help to help I have so many questions. I have questions that are even off the yoga subject, but I don't want to I think we're doing a good job of staying on theme. So I won't take us too far. And perhaps you'd be willing to come back onto the show in the future. So I could address some some more my questions. But I'm, I guess, in to synthesize or conclude if we are seeing that potentially contemporary yoga. Is it a little bit of a standstill? I feel like you've already answered this, but how can you summarize our solution moving forward? Okay, a very simple solution. So the tools of yoga we have today, which are predominantly from the toolbox of Hatha Yoga, are really good because they address our need of immediate well being While the while doing it in a way, which is also supportive for a clearer mind. So, this gives a very good background for anyone who wants to apply yoga in a deeper sense in the life. But then you have to bring in the whole discussion about the ethics of yoga, Karma Yoga, selfless action. And if you have any religious inclination, bring in bhakti. And use the toolbox of Guiana yoga, because let's face it, we all sometimes like to sit down and engage in deep thought, all of this is relevant. And so I would say, the tools of modern yoga that we have really good, but we should add to it that, okay, we do our practice, let's say daily basis in the morning, and then we spend the rest of our days doing something else. So we can bring yoga in to all aspects of our lives. I really recommend studying Bhagavad Gita, with the help of some of the traditional pre modern commentaries, or with pre modern, I really mean those commentaries that occupy the pre modern universe, because some of them may be written just like, Well, I came out with the Bhagavad Gita commentary in my native Finnish language a few days ago, so it's quite hot pressed on my table. But, but I really tried to just stick to the traditional commentaries, like, what is the yoga of Bhagavad Gita, as it has been explained in its own terms. And seems to me, that's a page after page after page, there are these ideas with a highly relevant for everyone today. I mean, the human condition in one way, just saying, like, now we have all this amazing technology, we can have this talk despite being in different sides of the world. So that's one thing, but at the same time, on a more fundamental level, the human condition is still quite similar. We are still struggling with the shortcomings. It's related to how we can interact with others, how we can contribute to the hole, and then how to deal with our sometimes really crazy minds, and senses. All of this stuff, I feel is when when Bhagavad Gita is talking about this 1000s of years ago, it's doing it in a way that I read it today. And on every page, I feel here, if I was able to apply this in my life, even 5%, what to speak of 100%. Yes, life wouldn't be much easier. Yes. Thank you great answer. I couldn't help I can't help but watch what's currently happening in relation to war. And think about Bhagavad Gita and think, wow, how poignant how it's so what's exactly what's going on? And not to say like, right now, it's hasn't been going on before. I mean, obviously, this has been going on for a long time. But it is amazing, isn't it? It's like really getting down to the core fundamental elements of like, what are we going to do? Or what? Who are we? What are we going to do? What is the path forward? Yeah, yeah. Well, amazing that you just completed your own commentary. I wonder if it will be translated into English at some point. I want to do that. So your English is so great. Obviously, your native tongue, your native tongue is going to be the way you're gonna write. And but I'm, I'm just, maybe you could, could you rewrite it? And I'm not selfish on my behalf? Because I'd like to read it. But that'd be such a huge undertaking. Is there? Is there AI technology that can you know, speaking of modern technology, is there is there a tool nowadays that translates from one language to another, but obviously, if it's computer generated? Yeah, it'd be like to lose my current impression of that this. It works better between some languages than others. I'm so far a little hesitant to do a walk translation with that kind of tool. So let's try to do it on my own. Yeah, one of the things I like to do is to just sit down and write and think Yeah, I think that's fun. So maybe that could be a hobby. I could undertake, like translating the book into English. Okay, let's see. Or maybe I can just talk to you on podcasts. And you can you just did a little translation for us already. Yeah, you know, I say again, please. Yeah, we got started, we got started, we got we got the ball rolling, we lit the fire. I also want to acknowledge Frank coppice, and thank him for introducing me to you. And I've had such an incredible experience interviewing people from Finland. Like if you if you asked me, if you asked me five or 10 years ago, or said to me, Hey, Todd, you're all of a sudden going to start talking to people in Finland, and finding this incredible group of people over there, that are just so unique and interesting and fascinating. I, I would have never expected it. And I'm really just I think every human it doesn't matter where we reside, you know, like, I don't, I think that the Earth obviously is the home for all of us. So you know, to for you, for me to say you over there and me over here. I mean, it's kind of silly. And obviously this sort of technology is starting to prove that to us, but I, I just I want to come to Finland. Yeah, yeah, I do. You said it's really dark there right now. And sometimes that gets heavy. But come in the summertime. Yeah, another good time is February because that's the snow month. That's beautiful. That you said. That's beautiful. Also, so so just so just in Feb is when you guys get the real dump of snow, but everything kind of before that December, January. It's just like what rainy and cold or? Yeah, it used to be that we had. No, if you go to North and Finland, then you would have snow. But yeah, gotcha. We used to have even in south in Finland. Many months. But so just to be on the safe side, if you're gonna book a trip and you want to see snow, then February would be a good, gotcha. Good choice. Oh, and then in the center of in the middle of the summer, because the sun does not really go down. So that's fascinating in another way. Like, the amount the amount of light you get on a square meter during a 24 hour period, in the middle of the summer, compared to right now. It's a ratio of 100 to one. Wow. So yeah, wow. Because it's from a different angle. And then it doesn't stop at all. So yeah, it's more intense, and it's on all the time. And now it's coming from, like, low angle, and it's days are fairly short. So I've always been so interested in that, like we have I've never been to Alaska, but that would be my closest opportunity to get on the latitude that you are but I've always wanted to experience either from the I've always wanted to spend a winter in Alaska just to see if I could make it you know, like because I you hear these stories of people being in cabins I guess it's probably the same for like Northern Finland, right? Like where, you know, you're by yourself maybe you're with limited contact with you know, larger community and that some people have a really hard time being in that sort of secluded space for that long. Do you feel that yoga is conducive to the Finland lifestyle or the the Northern Light the polar lifestyle because of that sort of need to be able to? It could also be that the northern climate and culture is conducive for yoga? Because one is naturally perhaps in a Yeah, I think there's some inclination towards solitude which would go well together with at least more asset extract the Ashtanga but the you need to come to Florida them for the Bhagavad Gita version. Yeah. Okay. Have you been? Have you been to the US before? Yeah, where'd you go? There was a series of conferences, religious studies and related to the projects I was working with so Rhode Island, Phoenix Corsten Las Vegas. Where else? Yeah, cool. Nothing. Nice, nice. Awesome. You know, Jana, I know we're getting we went over the time that we scheduled. And so this probably, this is a question that's outside of, but because your this is outside of our discussion, if you don't want to answer this right now, please be honest with me, we can save it for another conversation. And I know and I don't know if I can, even if it's even fair to me to ask a simple answer to this question, but, and someone asked me the other day, and I was unable to answer this, but I have a feeling you will be able. And it was really in relation to the historical timeline of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and Abrahamic traditions, and the relationship between Abrahamic traditions, and Islam and Judaism. And I guess the question was, which came first? Was it was it was it the? So obviously, there was someone named Abraham. And then where was Muhammad in relation to that timeline from Abraham? And then how did how did all that form? But that's such a huge question. So I don't think we can get into that. We can do that quickly. Yeah. Is there a Abrahamic tradition? So yeah, Judaism first Christianity, then Islam? is the last one. Yeah, this one. They always say that this is Mohammed is the last of the Prophet, not the only one. But that's the end of the end of it, there's nothing you need to add to Quran, according to that discourse. So Abraham would be then early on. Yeah, it's fascinating that all the three traditions rewear, some of the oldest, like, important theater, so prophets, but then the further forward you move, the less you have common ground. So Islam would also revere Jesus, but not as any kind of manifestation of God. But like as a great deeds, a great prophet, like that. Got it? That's perfect. Yeah, please, please, please. And then Christina's would consider that Jesus came to complete the Old Testament revelation and kind of boil it down into its essence, but not denying it. So. Yeah, that's the short of it. Last question, Abrahamic traditions, I thought Islam a couple of times at the university level, wow. But Christianity and Judaism, like I didn't know these reasons that well, obviously, I grew up in a Christian culture. So you cannot miss seeing some of it. But like, because, due to my studies in yoga, I understand that it's possible to grow up in a culture without knowing much about the the deeper layer of layer of the philosophical theological tradition. So for that reason, I think it's safe to assume that they don't know much about Christianity, despite having grown up in that environment. That's a cool observation. Yeah, you're right. You can say I, I grew up in this tradition, but I don't really know that much about it. Which is, which is interesting. I know. All right. Well, I will I won't keep you any longer. I definitely. I'm fascinated that you're spent so much time into religious studies. So I would love to ask him more questions. But thank you so much for expounding upon these yoga ideas. I really enjoyed this. Jana. I love I really, I really appreciate this. Thank you so much. Thank you, Todd. You're very you're great host you know how to inspire inspire your your studio guests. Thank you. That means a lot to me. I really do appreciate that. That's my hope. That's my dream anyway. Yeah, sir. Thank you. Well, man, I I can't I'll I'll be in touch with you. And I can't wait to release this and I can't wait to hear hear more about your commentary from the pre modern perspective of Bhagavad Gita. And I love the solution that you're positing, in relation to keeping our yoga practice going. But actually thinking about, what, why and where am I headed and what is my goal and what's possible for me here. And so this has been great. Thank you. Thank you, Todd. Thank you. Native yoga podcast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time