Shiran Berkovich - Exploring the Intersection of Art and Yoga

Shiran Berkovich is an art instructor, professional artist, and Ashtanga yoga teacher based in Berlin, Germany. She views the world through the lens of an artist and a yogini, and her work explores the connection between art and yoga. You can find her on her website, https://www.choreographyonpaper.com/, and on Instagram @shiranhb https://www.instagram.com/shiranhb/.

During this conversation Shiran speaks about:

• Shiran views the world through the lens of an artist and a yogini, finding inspiration in people's emotions and physical expressions.
• Berlin offers a sense of space, affordability, and a vibrant art scene, making it an attractive place for artists and yogis.
• Drawing allows for a deeper observation of the world and helps to cultivate a sense of interconnectedness and acceptance.
• Shiran's journey as an artist and yogini has led her to a place of openness and acceptance, allowing her to recover from eating disorders and deepen her connection with others.

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Transcript

Todd McLaughlin: 0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com All right, let's begin Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. I'm so delighted to bring Shiran Berkovich on to the channel today. She lives in Berlin, Germany. She is an art instructor, a professional artist and an Astanga yoga teacher, she speaks about how she views the world through the lens of an artist and a Yogini. And you can find her on her website, which is www.choreographyonpaper.com. You can find her on Instagram definitely do go look up Shiran because her art is just so powerful and and incredible. Her Instagram handle is at@sharonhb, the links are in the description below. I also want to give a huge shout out to my most recent subscriber who offered financial support for this show. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, you know who you are. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you much. Appreciate it. All right, let's go ahead and get started here with Shiran. Because she has so many beautiful, amazing and insightful things to say I just can't wait for you to hear this. So let's begin. I feel an incredible opportunity here to speak with Shiran Berkovich. And Shiran, how are you doing today?

Shiran Berkovich: 2:21

Pretty good, actually, today.

Todd McLaughlin: 2:26

Thank you so much for joining me, I believe you're in Berlin, Germany. Is that correct?

Shiran Berkovich: 2:30

That's very true.

Todd McLaughlin: 2:31

That's I've never been to Berlin. I recently had a student come in who had been traveling through Europe. And I said, if you were to move from USA to Europe, and you've been all over Europe, where would you move to? And she said, without a doubt Berlin, she just was so enamored with Berlin. And I asked her well, like, why what's she said, well, like her take on it. And maybe you'll disagree and you can enlighten me but her take on it was that like it was you could still afford to live there that it had like this cool artists five condom maybe the way Manhattan did before it became so impossible to be able to be an artist and afford living in Manhattan, New York. And then she said like the culture element. And just like everything that's going on, she was just really enamored with Berlin. Can you tell me your feelings and thoughts about where you live?

Shiran Berkovich: 3:27

Okay, so I've moved here five years ago, and Berlin was not new to me, because I have family here. So I visited Berlin a bunch of times before moving. Actually yoga got me here, and maybe we will touch that. As we continue, and I think, I mean, I was attracted to displace, because I don't know a specific yoga teacher was very, was very curious about the way that he was teaching. But I find Berlin to be just, I don't know, there's this sense of, of space here that I come from Israel. So that's where I'm originally from. And I lived in Tel Aviv for seven years before coming here. And I love Tel Aviv it didn't move because I hate it. No, no way. But I don't know like the sidewalks. The sidewalks are big. A wide. Nature is available. Of course it's comfortable financially to live here. It's very affordable to live in. Still. I think you can find anything you want and need in Berlin. I mean, I find Berlin to be very peaceful and quiet for me. But I know that if I was the other way around and I was looking for some action and you know So the party scene that also exists here and raising family is also you know, so it's like, anyone can find their place in Berlin. And it's still very, yes, very comfortable and affordable. So I highly recommend it.

Todd McLaughlin: 5:15

That's cool. I hope to be able to visit one day for sure. I, I found you on Instagram, I searched like yoga and art. And when I found your profile, I was I am enamored with your artwork, it's so incredible. I think you're an amazing artist. And then when I saw that you also are an ashtanga yoga practitioner and teacher, I was so excited to reach out to you. And so with that being said, thank you so much for being willing to join me here. And I guess I want to start if you don't mind me asking some questions about your art life. But can you tell me when you started to connect with creating art? Was it from a very young age? Or is it something that you got more into, like later on in life?

Shiran Berkovich: 6:03

Well, I, I don't have any memory, like real memories from from being a baby, or a toddler. But rumor has it that I you know, I held I held a pencil and it was one year old. And I guess I never stopped. So drawing was always a big passion of mine. Actually, people are a big passion of mine. In how people's emotions and personalities are being put represented by their their bodies and their faces that their physical expression or their facial expressions. So I was always attracted to it. I was very, I guess, quiet and shy girl. And I was just staring at people all the time. I was just looking, I was so intrigued by people's behavior and appearance. And I am till this very day, actually. So I've been drawing people, and I guess getting better at it. As I went and yoga came officially into my life a little bit over 10 years ago.

Todd McLaughlin: 7:17

Nice, nice. And so like, what did you start to create pieces of artwork like, say middle school that your teachers said, Wow, you have some skill? Or where was the point that you feel like maybe you received a little bit of acknowledgement that gave you a push to feel like this is something you're going to pursue?

Shiran Berkovich: 7:41

Well, thank you come from a family of, let's say, people who can draw pretty well. So but not they don't like no one actually worked at it. So my mom draws and does really beautiful craft work. And so she always promoted like and encouraged us. We are three sisters. So she encouraged us to, to create and to draw. And I have an older sister. And so she was always better than us. I always wanted to catch up. So that encouraged me. But But um, yes, but I was, you know, yes, teachers said that I draw a lovely and I think one thing that I remember very clearly is that I hated learning how to draw. I didn't want to learn how to draw and so I didn't really I felt I think drawing for me, it's the only area in my life where I don't let anyone tell me what to do. They're like this, the the only place where I don't research, how to do things almost at all. I think the only thing I was really interested in learning how to do is to oil paint because I felt like okay, this is something that I need some explanation. What am I doing with this? So I did study it's around the age of 25 to about 16 years ago. And yeah, so but encouraged to actually do it as a profession that was never there. So like, choose something practical to do. I guess. Yeah, I guess until this day, there is a little place in me that struggles with this. I want to be you know, I want to create art full time almost. But there's something that feels very, very insecure with really going for it. Yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 9:53

Yeah. I understand that. That makes perfect sense. Are you so I see that you To teach yoga, so I know that you probably earn some from your teaching. Are you selling art? Are you able to earn some money from the art you create?

Shiran Berkovich: 10:13

Yes, but my main main, I guess, income and profession and businesses actually teaching Oh, are teaching people how to draw

Todd McLaughlin: 10:23

teaching art? Yeah. Okay, gotcha, that makes sense. You're so good, I figure you have to be on some level teaching I saw, I saw, I probably would need to pull it up and read it because it's a little bit of a more lengthy video that you posted on Instagram, where you were giving a lecture. And there's a picture I think you might have drawn of someone it looks like they're like almost opening their abdomen up. And you're speaking about vulnerability and your ability to open yourself up. Which I thought was really cool. Like to see the way that you write with your blog and then back it up with the visual art part is so creative. Can you tell me what your teaching what what you get out of teaching and or what inspires you and teaching?

Shiran Berkovich: 11:18

Okay, so I think what you mentioned, was actually, I have a lot of things now running through my head. So that fragment of a lecture that you saw, unfortunately, the whole lecture is not was not failing, it was just a little piece of it. But that was the first time that I stood on a podium and actually talked about the connection between art and yoga. I was invited to got I don't remember the full name of the place. Okay, I think an art institute Institute gods by Yogi friend that actually lectures there. And so I was talking about my creative process. And and I had the opportunity of really talk about to really talk about art and yoga, or creativity and yoga and how they combine and kind of, I guess, help each other to, to grow together and separate thing in my life. In the picture behind that, when did you talk about is actually, I lived in the US when I was 22. Not that far from where you are. I lived in Hilton Head Island.

Todd McLaughlin: 12:40

South Carolina. Yeah. Yeah.

Shiran Berkovich: 12:44

And back then it was the first time I had an official sketchbook, I bought a sketchbook and I was drawing every day. And I saw it's an old one. And I think it's something I never showed anyone. And I was standing there and showing that to an audience of art students. And that was a very, I guess, a very vulnerable place for me to be. And you asked about teaching art. I guess that was the question, wasn't it?

Todd McLaughlin: 13:18

Yeah. But I like your I like your answer. And I want to let you finish which way you're gonna go. But I'm curious. How like, as an art teacher, what inspires you? Is it the experience of seeing your students explore and you are you? Do you coach them along, like the way that you said that you prefer not anybody to really tell you how to do art, like the art is the one thing that you maybe don't seek outside opinion about while you're creating it? When you're teaching? Do you try to refrain from offering your own sort of opinion? Or how do you go about teaching art? How do you get an art student to like, have their eyes open up a little bit more and get deeper into it?

Shiran Berkovich: 14:01

So I think I started to share drawing or how to draw with people after I finished my bachelor, bachelor's degree, and I think it was around 28 and 2928 probably and I think I didn't have the confidence until that point to actually come to people and and show them how to do it because I was doing it myself, but I never asked how it is done. And then the last years of my bachelor's degree I when I studied or learned how to paint with oil colors, I also kind of learn new techniques. Or I saw how my teacher was teaching other people how to sketch how to work with pencil and charcoal and I picked got picked up, you know, like his techniques. And of course, in time I enrich them and they became my own, you know, like, it's a mixture. But what I learned, or what I saw as I was starting to teach other people how to draw is, are the difficulties and the insecurities that, yeah, that people experience when they, they see something and they want to and the ones right, when you look at something and you want to describe it on paper, which is just to create something out of nothing kind of experience. And what I know till this day, I mean, I think in my first years, I was more leaning into giving people those tools of it will bring them the confidence to actually go ahead and do it. Yeah. And nowadays, I, I work with people more, I do, like I work on on from both sides. Or I choose two angles to combine them. One is being more intuitive. Like, and to see how you feel with it and, and to trust to trust your yourself that you're able to do it. And on the other hand to get those okay, you do need a little bit of a, you know, those little techniques that will help you to do it. So I combined the two but I know that I mean I'm like living proof that you can if you stay there long enough you can do it without anything you know you need nothing and patience and and and this this passion you know this like inner want to say calling but it's not really I don't think it's an inner calling. It's just this this curiosity this like endless curiosity of like I just I find this interesting.

Todd McLaughlin: 17:03

That's so cool. You're on that's so fascinating. I'm, I'm curious are do believe that artistic skill, you're born with it, or something that any buddy can cultivate it if they're willing to put the time and patience in the way that you're speaking about.

Shiran Berkovich: 17:18

I think that the second one? Yeah, you do.

Todd McLaughlin: 17:21

That's good. I mean, sounds like that's the approach that you took, like, look, I want to learn how to do this without anybody telling me and showing me I want to figure it out on my own. But But you did say that you came from a family of artistic individuals, which makes me think, I guess maybe if you're an if it's not something that's a born skill, that then the nurture element of being in an environment where people around you are creating probably has to help. But maybe it's not the deciding factor, it sounds like based on what you're saying.

Shiran Berkovich: 17:56

I think that I mean, the people that are creative is that my mom knows how to draw pretty well. And my sisters also, but neither one of them actually continued with in my direction of hyper realistic drawing. So I think, you know, it's, of course, it gave me the freedom to do that or to see, you know, it's that it's something that can be done and appreciated. But as I said, it was not, I was not promoted to to see it as something, you know, for life, like, this is what you're going to do. I was always even if what I want to say even if not verbally, but also verbal, encouraged you to choose something that I can actually make a living out of. So I do want to say that when I I was teaching others how to draw for about three years, and then came yoga. And it was just, I always saw the similarities how, how similar the realizations that you have with yoga, I'm talking about yoga philosophy, and drawing, just, you know, and then I just realized, I mean, it is it does work like that, for me, that a lot of the concepts and yoga philosophy are, you know, they're just like, they're out there. And you, you kind of you can sense them maybe, but drawing can give you this more tangible experience of what yoga teaches about Yeah, about the illusion of reality about separation and dualism and like, you know, it's just like all those concepts are available to you when you start to use your eyes to see the world around you. And I, I think, um, you know, I have I'm human, I have my hardships in life. But the fact that I draw that I look at things, and I draw them has given so much to my life, even before yoga, and yoga, just that, but this ability to experience everything, as if it is the first time I see it. And I have it with people, and they have it with nature. And I think I remember when I used to say it, I remember that I noticed it with you know, it was a while back, but one of my serious long term relationships, I remember is to say to and we agreed on it, me and my partner that it has this feeling of like, every time that we see each other, it's the first time that we see each other. So there's this excitement that stayed for seven years. And then when I hear about people getting bored of relationships, like, how come it's like every, every time it's like the first time, you know, nothing can be boring, when you really experience everything for the first time. So I think this is a gift that drawing brought into my life.

Todd McLaughlin: 21:13

That's a really good example, I was going to ask how you saw that connection, but that it makes perfect sense. If you're looking at something like I'm about to draw this object that it would cause you to have to study it on such an intense level. So that's so interesting that you can make the parallel with relationships, that ability to like come into the moment and not maybe not even like that you see your partner and you're necessarily think I'm going to draw my partner but maybe just seeing the moment, so to speak in between. So that's really cool. How did when you when you so you're in a stronger yoga practitioner and teacher was that the first type of yoga that you were introduced to? Or what was the doorway to the Ashtanga world.

Shiran Berkovich: 22:00

I tried a few types of yoga. Before I do, I think I want to say something about the previous part about experienced things add to that it's not necessarily because I want to draw them. But I think when you when you look at things, you realize that things are never the same. And every time you're going to look at something again, or you're going to look at it longer, or you're going to look or you're going to take like a an inch, like those step to the right or to the left, you're going to discover something completely new. And things don't look the same all the time, they always change and, and this this is what the drawing brings this ability to understand to accept change, I think and to appreciate.

Todd McLaughlin: 22:52

So I'll be really honest with you, Sharon, I've I think I can draw stick figures. But that's about it. And so I have very slow self esteem with my artistic ability. And so as a person who, as myself who I don't think I can draw, but you're getting me really intrigued you're making me feel like if I just practiced a little I could probably maybe actually turn a corner to feel like I can draw. So what kind of advice could you give me just in this like moving forward like when you were saying like I was imagining an apple like when you said you can just move a little bit and if I'd looked if I was envisioning an apple and then if I just like come around the side I'm going to maybe see a little bump on the side of the app or maybe the way the light is shining on the Apple or but then the process of trying to like convey that on paper with a pencil What do I do I just do the best I can just try and just see what happens and don't judge it I mean, what is your advice here?

Shiran Berkovich: 23:56

I think it's first maybe the first step is to since you practice yoga and probably sit for meditation is to allow yourself to see things for the first time because when you come to draw an apple or anything else, without knowing subconsciously you have a relationship with that object or subject. So you already have a picture of an apple in your mind before you even go and and describe it on paper. So I think the first step is this allowing new information to come to kind of put aside what you think you know about the apple and actually look at it as it is and understand the relationship that you have with it. You know, am I looking above it and below is it right in front of me my from this I like understand that and then understanding that. Well that is something that will be easier to If we actually were in a in a class, but that every line you want to draw, does not represent separation. But actually the relationship between what you draw and everything that's around it. So that's a, if you place an apple in front of a white wall, everywhere that this white wall is going to meet that Apple, or whatever color it is right, you will draw a line. But if you understand that you actually describe where this two shapes and different colors meet, then you are actually creating a relationship, you're describing the relationship between this shape and that shape. And you're not just trying to divide things from each other. So I think these two things will be the tips that will get

Todd McLaughlin: 26:04

us so interesting, gosh, I've never even thought about this stuff. Diving into the mind of an artist, this is cool.

Shiran Berkovich: 26:14

I think I think it's the mind of the yogi.

Todd McLaughlin: 26:17

Yogi hours. I know when you were when you were when you made the mention of Well, the one of the words used earlier was the the illusion of reality. So then if we just like go a little bit into if you were to study say the classic one that we all come across as Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. What what do you glean from yoga sutras in relation to the nature of reality and or its counterpoint, the illusion of reality?

Shiran Berkovich: 26:49

I think I cannot come up with one specific sutra. But and maybe we will get also to this topic. In the

Todd McLaughlin: 27:02

as we keep going,

Shiran Berkovich: 27:04

yeah. Yeah. But I've distanced distanced myself from yoga philosophy, a little bit in the recent year or two. Because I went through a period, not a period, like a process of recovering from, from eating disorders. And I found that I use a lot of the yoga philosophy also as an escape and not just a way of seeing things. So it was important for me to take a step back and listen to my own voice or to find my own voice and into like, inner intelligence that is standing aside of the unspoken ideals that some of this strip of Scripture describe, you know.

Todd McLaughlin: 28:00

Yeah. So yeah. However, however, you're back into it now.

Shiran Berkovich: 28:09

But I do want to say, I mean, I have given a few little bit of yoga philosophy lectures in this past year and connected things to art. So the way I see the illusion of reality is first of all, this sense of separation is one of them. I think, you know, there's me and there's them. And then of course, there's all the talks about in yoga and yoga sutras about the there's the ocean, you know, and the wave and what we think we are and what

Todd McLaughlin: 28:54

the picture that you drew of the wave because I think okay, your wave picture and I think he started talking well you you made a little bit of allusion to what you said in that post about in my the wave or the ocean or am I separate from the ocean as a wave but the drawing of the wave at first I thought there has to be a photograph of it like a black and white photograph it's so realistic I I serve so I love wave pictures and drawings and any any sort of wave imagery so when I saw that I was like, Oh my gosh, you're so skilled. But But I didn't I didn't want to interrupt you because you're going down a good thought I threw you off but I wanted to throw out there that the your wave picture so everybody listening, please go check out Chevron's Instagram. Now the link below it's at Chevron, HB, I believe, did I get that right? Yeah, cool. Sorry, but let me let you finish your thought about the illusion of reality in a wave and an ocean.

Shiran Berkovich: 29:53

So that feeling of separation, right. And also the mind controlling everything. So even what I said before about, you have a distinct image of an apple when you want to draw an apple, right? That's already yoga sutras, it's either you see, you project through your mind into reality. And you don't really see things for what they really are. We don't. And so I think that part was very strong for me from the Yoga Sutras, even though I cannot point right now at a specific sutra at the moment. But But yeah, that illusion of reality being something very constructed, very materialistic, while and I think now, it's not yoga sutras, but also that, that interconnectedness, you know, everything, how everything affects everything. And when you start to look at things, you will understand that nothing can exist on its own. And you are a part of everything. Because it's just it doesn't stand alone. If the wall okay, let's say if everything behind me was not there. Maybe you couldn't even see me. Yeah, and

Todd McLaughlin: 31:20

yeah, so I see what you're saying.

Shiran Berkovich: 31:24

Yeah. So everything has to be where it is, in order to exist the way that you see it. I also want to say that when you really look at things when you draw them, not just look, and the more you look and look. And look, you realize that everything is so abstract. You are the one who creates the lines, and you are the one who creates division between things. Because it's easier for us, I believe, as people to have this separation. And I think it's also very natural, because we experience things as a separate body. But there is that dimension, that when you go deeper, whether it's through your eyesight or deeper with and that you feel that all you see that things are just this, you know that

Todd McLaughlin: 32:16

that's why there. That's great explanation.

Shiran Berkovich: 32:20

Thank you. I wasn't sure that I actually put it into words.

Todd McLaughlin: 32:26

It's very hard. Yes.

Shiran Berkovich: 32:29

into words, I find.

Todd McLaughlin: 32:32

Yeah, I know, these concepts are but I liked the fact that you're using art as a way to explain some of these difficult philosophical notions that potentially Patanjali and or yoga sutras and or all yoga philosophy. Attempts to do. That's a really great medium. I want to try to also get clear on you mentioned you practice some yoga before you started Stanga. But was there a moment where then you took an Ashtanga class and you went, Okay, this is what I want to do? Oh, yeah.

Shiran Berkovich: 33:09

Yeah, I think I, my first yoga class was with my father when I was, I don't know, eight or nine or less years old, that a community center back in my hometown. And, and I only met it again, somewhere in my late 20s I think made no I think I went to a few classes at university. And it was always nice, it was always relaxing. It was you know, was nice. And I always said like, oh, I would like to do it again. But it never really happened. And in a friend recommended me to try Mysore style. Like she didn't even say like a standard she just said Mysore style. And it's a bit it's a I think, now looking back, it's a bit funny. I always was afraid to go into Ashtanga specifically not even Mysore because my my boyfriend's ex at the time was an Ashtanga teacher. And I was you know, a little bit jealous and I didn't want to, you know, just feel that I'm, she's much better than me and compare myself and all the insecurities of being like, you know, the younger person. And, but then at some point, it was like, Okay, I'm gonna give it a try. So I started with regular standard classes, which I liked. But I didn't like him that much, but I felt that Ashtanga had something that I liked. And then I tried Mysore, the first Mysore class, actually I can't say that again. I liked it. But it was too far from my house from from where I lived. So I was like, Okay, I want to try Mysore but I want to live I want to be closer to where I live. And I found one. And then when I went into that class that was it.

Todd McLaughlin: 35:09

Where was where was it? Where was that?

Shiran Berkovich: 35:14

He was 2013 in Tel Aviv, the south of the studio still exists, I think the location is different. The teacher thank God still exists.

Todd McLaughlin: 35:27

Who's the teacher?

Shiran Berkovich: 35:29

Her name is Kid and all cages think I hope I say her last name correctly. And she's a wonderful just wonderful being and I went I just got into that class. And I just I couldn't believe it. I could just be me. I can practice on my own pace. I can progress gradually. We can modify it for my like tight hamstring. We get I don't know it was just Yeah. I was breathing and I had this like such a sense of relief. And I started to go every day or almost every day it was very hard for me physically at the beginning I gotta say for years I have not a very like my background, I had a lot of illness and you know, in my past I had ulcerative colitis like I had like a serious flare up for almost 10 years so it was you know, moving up and down but I had a lot of serious flare ups and then medium and serious and medium so my body was not strong so I think for the first almost five I'd say four years of the practice it was always going back and forth and yeah but definitely never left it since my footsteps into that Mysore room I had other teachers since lovely ones, but I do Oh, like my you know, forest crash falling in love to that. Yeah, to studio name and Kedah know, that was just she she just caught my heart there.

Todd McLaughlin: 37:18

I love hearing that I had a similar first Mysore experience to incredible. Um, curious then at what point you said, you've been practicing. You've been with this younger practice maybe 10 years You said so? At what point did you decide to teach Ashtanga Yoga? Did you have somebody come up to you and say can you please cover class for me? You're doing really great. I know you know it. You don't have to do anything just come in and teach or just like observe or did you do a training or did you go to Mysore? What was your pathway toward becoming a yoga teacher?

Shiran Berkovich: 37:52

So I wasn't planning on teaching I do have a background with being a fitness instructor and a Pilates instructors and things like that. But it was never it was always like a side job thing. Art. And teaching art history and teaching drawing was like my my main thing. But I really wasn't planning on teaching yoga. But at the same time, it was I was really I was just interested. I always wanted to know, to learn more. So in my first years because it was very physically unwell, I combined a lot of philosophy studies into my yoga practice, because there were times that physically I just couldn't really practice Asana. So I went to Shiva, Nana Sivananda centers and retreats with my teacher, no more, my friend, but this week, Swami Kashi Muktananda really sweet, sweet, wonderful guy. So I studied philosophy, but I always wanted to learn more, and also wanted to learn more about asinine. And of course, you can do it in a nicer room. But I felt like if I now go on a journey in Israel, I think it started back then already. It's not, you know, it's not this short dance, like yoga, trainings. It's like a full year or like two semesters. That's all of it. Yeah. I decided to do one of those. Just to learn more. I didn't want to be a teacher at that point. And I ended up doing two years. So I did. Yeah, I did primary series for the first years and that year, and then I did the second series in the second year, and the teaching because I'm the second year in order to get the certificate, which I do. Even going to the second year was like do I really want it do I want second series? was all like, I didn't know. But I went off going for it and to get the certificate I had to volunteer.

Todd McLaughlin: 40:07

So nice. Yeah, like to give passes, I gave you the push to

Shiran Berkovich: 40:13

break it. Yeah, I did. Yeah, I gave community classes. And also, the thing that was even more precious and important for me is that I created, I contacted a nonprofit organization that helped women from difficult backgrounds. And we gathered a group, and this the, the studio I was working in, gave me a room at a specific time. And then I started to I just had a group of women. And it wasn't even it wasn't like Ashtanga Yoga. You know, we were doing very soft, you know, simple classes, a lot of breathing. And I and at that point, I was like, You know what I can do? Yeah. I can teach this and then, and then came some subs, you know. But my actual intense teaching period was in Berlin, started in Berlin five years ago. With us,

Todd McLaughlin: 41:25

are you currently doing both Mysore style and like classes, or are you sticking just with the Mysore viceversa

Shiran Berkovich: 41:35

at the moment, and like, I'm in between things. I was working at soli, Mysore place for three and a half years. And then for a year and a little bit another, so the nicer place, but I added a place that also, I give, you know that primary class, and we started a little bit of Mysore lately, the last few months. So I give only one class that is like an instructive class, which I really like. Because it's a mix, I do a mix of primary and second, modified. So I feel like it's an it's a playful kind of thing. But Mysore is what I truly believe in, you know, this is what I believe in. Yeah, this is I practice and then it's hard to do things that are different. I want to if I see someone that I feel, you know, that needs that supporting hand or word, I want to be able to go to them. And I feel that in a group setting of an instructive class, I cannot do it. And it's hard. I hear Yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 42:49

Have you ever taught a yoga and art workshop or class where you bring people in, have them practice and then in some capacity, engage in art.

Shiran Berkovich: 43:02

It's something I really want to do. I did a little beginners experiment about a month ago, at the nice, like, retreat center in Israel. So we kind of started to build it up. But it's something I would really love to do. But I haven't done that yet.

Todd McLaughlin: 43:24

That's cool. How would you how if you like in your imagination and or your thoughts or like thinking like how could you incorporate it? Or how because you you definitely can go deep? Like philosophically some wondering, like, drawing other people in down dog? Or maybe they do a son citation. And then you have them draw. I don't know how could you build the connection between creating art and deepening the yoga practice experience and or vice versa? I

Shiran Berkovich: 44:03

think the main connection between drawing and practicing Asana or not just as an meditation is observation. So that is like the thing that links everything. So it's mainly getting together in order to know if improve is the word, but

Todd McLaughlin: 44:28

good point.

Shiran Berkovich: 44:31

Yeah, it's not it's not to improve your skill. It's just maybe to deepen your observation. In but also learning how to deepen as you look out, because I think yoga takes you inwards, in drawing takes you inwards through looking at the outside world. And in since that's when our practice is almost the same. Because I think that the rational, one of the rational explanations of asana practice is that, you know, there's like the, the eight limbs, right, and four of them are things that you can physically work with, and the other four are being developed on their own pace. So we work on the body, because we experience things on the physical level. And it makes sense, you know, it's through the body, we can develop the ability to go deeper, and to become more aware, and to quiet the mind and everything. So I think we're drawing is the same, we, our visual sense is just so strong, and so connected to, to all the information that we get, and process and experience. So to learn how to see things a bit differently. To communicate more with that sense of sights can be something that brings a lot of stillness, to the mind, and an opportunity to get to know ourselves a little bit better. And I feel that what yoga brought to my drawing, is enhancing the sense that I am not separate everything. And it got me as a person who's I think in my, in my nature, I guess a little bit more introverted, I love people. And at the same time, you know, I need my time, I need my quiet time. But it got me to a place that is just more open. And instead of being in my own skin, analyzing, you know, like, every little thing, to the smallest detail and suffering within, it's just opened me up to say, like, you know, what, I actually I don't want to feel that alone with this. I want to communicate with other people in more ways. And it got me and it grew my art because I started to work with people more and getting more, you know, and doing projects with people and being spot inspired by, by other people's story and five stories and find myself in, you know, like, together with other people. And I think that eventually, even though I went through a very strong period of being angry at myself, and the method, but it really led me to open up to open up to really recover from my eating disorders. That was something I mean, when that came, it brought a lot up. And I'm kind of curious to hear about your, your being angry at the method, period. But it got me to this, like real faith crisis. Oh, my God, if you ration that I am, I think for at least six months, but I'm just like, you know, I'm finding my way out of it back to this, like strength and faith. But it was really hard. I haven't stopped practicing during that time, physically, almost Yes. Because if you have body image issues and eating disorders, then one of the important things that I felt naturally compelled to do was to, to see how can I practice without that place that uses the practice to maybe look a certain way, or to not even look a certain way. So you do have this, this criteria of like, if I do this every day, I'm a good person, this sets my value. So I had to communicate with that place. And since then, I'm just much much I'm a much softer practitioner. Yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 49:14

oh, my gosh, you're on Yeah. Maybe this is something we all have to go through at some point. Like, like a universal yoga practitioner, dark night of the soul. experience that I would agree. 100% I think you're doing a great job of communicating the intricacy of some of these elements that were coming up with the yoga practice. But yeah, the faith part. I can I feel I feel very, I can agree with you on a percent maybe. Maybe there was something that happened cosmically, that caused a lot of us to have a similar challenge of faith of the practice and war of yoga in general. So I'm happy or maybe it's pure coincidence, that, that, that what you're saying, I feel like I just been going through as well but turning a corner and coming out the other side going Ha, that was heavy, let's just just relax a little bit here, just take it easy, just have some

Shiran Berkovich: 50:20

of the things that I did. I don't know if I did it in order to. But I. But I used it as an experience that really, I think it started to bring me up a little bit or out not just out. I gave a lecture I don't know for lecture, but just to talk about the meaning of the opening and the closing mantras of the astanga yoga practice. And I think that what was really hard for me as a human being practicing yoga, is to truly accept my human side, I think what I was really leaning into is using yoga to, you know, to become higher than this human self. And through recovery is actually what I'm learning to do is to accept it. And I think that already, in the opening mantra, you have this finding peace within dualism, just right there in the first sentence, because you have, you know, I, I bow in front of the teachers to lotus feet, so you have two feet, it's already talks to you about dualism. And it's, it shows you the sweetness of life, but it's because you're able to see the two and you don't exclude one, you learn

Todd McLaughlin: 51:57

to Oh, and that's clear. Yeah, both of

Shiran Berkovich: 52:01

them. And they say lotus and then I'm like, sometimes they think it's so corny. But still, you know that Lotus that is growing in this like dirty water, and you cannot not have that roots in the dirty water. You cannot be that beautiful flower that you see on the outside, if you have no connection to that bottom, and it's not dirty. You know, why do we even call it dirty? It's just two things that work together, they seem different. But I think so what learning to see is that I cannot detach myself from this being and and this is for me the process of recovery and actually living a more peaceful life because two, I think maybe the the poison of immortality, right? Or that poison that we are talking about is that constant inner fight, you know, that, that I personally say that I was much more involved with, I cannot say that I don't think it will ever go legs like the best thing about forgetting who you are, is to remember. But, but yeah, it's just this, this poison, I think is that self criticism of like, you know, like what are as a human being and it's not even your maybe, I don't know, eating habits, smoking habits, their eating habits, whatever habits that we have. Those are not the dark stuff. The dark enough are the things that we are refined, that are underneath those behaviors that we just find very hard to accept. Maybe it's our need for love that we criticize, you know, that we we feel that I don't know, or a little insecurities, our basic needs that we want to say, maybe I can just make this pain go away using whatever

Todd McLaughlin: 54:07

so much goodness and all that where do I touch upon? That is will that is amazing. In relation to I've never wide definitely have not thought about the two feet. That's cool as versus like the one versus two feet in the opening mantra one day go to Nam Chun another day. I'm going to bow to the lotus feet of a guru and you're seeing feet, saying feet is plural, as opposed to like this singular. And so this idea of trying to separate ourselves from the stuff that's really horrible and difficult. I love that you brought up the lotus in the murky water. You can't you have to have one to have the other. So that element of acceptance, you know, it did make me think Come, I'm guessing you've heard of the really well known Ashtanga Yoga teacher, Tim Miller. Yes. And he, he's my teacher and one time he was here. And when Tommy Joyce was coming to Ireland, Murata down in the Florida Keys, we drove down there to practice and Tim showed up. And so post, one of the practices, Tim, we had the chance to take him out to breakfast. And so this was at the point where I was looking at, my teacher is like, he must be holier than and bigger than and more advanced than and all the extra things that we hope that someone that we put on a pedestal will be. So I figured he's probably like a breatharian, or something like, like, he probably doesn't even eat food, because he's just living off of air. So I said to him, I said, Tim, where where do you want to go eat out because we're in the keys, and I remember probably gonna get like fried food. I mean, there's like, not a lot of good, healthy options. And he said, he said, Oh, let's just go anywhere. He's like, I'll eat anything. He said, I'm not on that. Make sure I get this, right. I'm not a yogi that disguises their eating disorder as spiritual discipline. And I went, Wow, that's intense. Because I was always because there is an element with like, maybe if we read say, Hatha Yoga Pradipika and or some of these other texts that expound these really hardcore aesthetic practices that might say something like, You should only drink milk or you should subsist off a yogi can live off of, you know, just this and that and not much else. And that maybe if I do want to not eat much, because my own body dysmorphia issues that, that then I can read into these classic texts and say, Oh, yoga is actually telling me I need to have a eating disorder. So I love that you're bringing all this up? Um, what have you found in relation to? You kind of already answered this question? Because I feel like you you answered in just this recovery mode that you're speaking of in terms of being able to accept the sides of you, me be able to accept the side of myself that I'm just not real happy with, or I think I should separate from but did you cut this out? Is all this sounding similar? Different ringing true? Anything you can say after I mentioned all that?

Shiran Berkovich: 57:30

Get back to it in a second. I do want to say that the lotus feet. So I am for us back. Richard Richard Freeman did write about the two lotus feet, he wrote something different. But I think this is the first time he made me think about the two. You know, that was like, I think that the the way he continues, it is different. But then I was like, you know, it just threw me to that place of dualism. That way. So I do want to say that because it is something that stemmed out of stemmed out of something that I read, are the eating disorders. Now, I forgot you're completely right. But I do think that you mentioned your teacher, and that putting someone on a pedestal. So I think there's always this search for method is like something that we all have with everything. And it does think it connects to this. I think one of the explanations of what perfectionism is, I put it in one of my lectures is Brene Brown, and she speaks about perfectionism is this belief that if you will do 1234, you will not suffer anymore. This is just my way of putting it.

Todd McLaughlin: 58:57

I liked it, it rhyme though, it rhymes. So it works,

Shiran Berkovich: 59:00

that we all look for that. So we search for that methods, I think I'm going to bring something that is maybe, I don't know, I'm Israeli. So, it can be a little bit rude. But people that drink coffee in order to go to the bathroom in money, you found a method that works for you and you repeat it because you think that if you will not do this, you will suffer you know, or you guess you suffer. So, it's like those, even this is a method. So, Ashtanga is understand the method, you know, and and it lives in the same dualistic world that it talks about. So, with the beauty of it comes the other side of the coin of searching, yearning for something they will fix us, you know, they will make things better always. And, and then I can say that I came to many types of Have can say, I want to say diets basic, you know, not a weight loss diet just because of my autoimmune disease. So I tried everything. And it was just unbelievable to see how my eating disorder was playing in each and every one of them. So it's like the big, like, the sign. Like, the bright sign was like, I'm trying to get healthy. But with a six sick mind, because I can really do that. Yeah, so I think also with the Ashtanga method, or just every other practices, it's really I think, maybe it's rom Das was, was talking about the, the beauty of methods, he said, a really good method will catch you, you know, it will make you like defend your life, you know, the, like, you will defend it with with your life, you know, you're just, it has to be like the best thing ever. And he said that if you're lucky enough, you will wake up. And you will see that what that method brought to you was always there, and then you can use it, but you don't have the same illusion, you know, and maybe not the same obsessiveness towards it. This is something that we we fixes you. So I think for me right now, Ashtanga, it's still, you know, I still question things. I'm not like, I live in recovery from the main eating disorder that was consuming my life and health, which was bulimia. But, but I still have, you know, like eating habits that I think that are, I mean, I still will use food to manage the way I feel. So I'm not fully recovered. But I think some of it, you know, lands on the normal spectrum of emotional eating. But I think it was just really important for me to, yeah, to, to address, practicing, and not as something that, that sets my value that says that if I'm doing this, I'm a good person, if I don't, I don't want to let go a little bit of that fear that, wow, I if I don't practice for two days, I'm gonna lose my strength. And even if I would write a post about it and declare that I'm totally fine with it, like inside, or, you know, I can say, by the way, like, pretty proudly that in the last weeks, I've been subbing for a wonderful teacher, that had to go to the US, um, I am taking care of her Sharla, which was just gone. And, and it's a big effort for me, you know, I wake up before, I haven't done that for a while, need to be there like 615 in the morning, and it's still nine. And then the studio has other classes, I cannot do my practice after and then the day goes on, and I need to go to sleep early. And you know, I have I have my drawing business and everything. So I'm like, honestly, I cannot even you know, I'm not even trying to shove in a practice. Yes. And I'm totally fine with it. I can practice if my body allows it on my days off. I stretch it stretches. And I'm talking about us in a practice. I mean, I sit for meditation, I have this and it's okay, I can get weaker and weaker. I can lose some of the strength that I usually have more flexibility.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:03:58

Okay, you know, doesn't that feel good? You're on?

Shiran Berkovich: 1:04:01

Yes. And it's funny because still if I say to another fellow yoga friend, there will be like, laughing You know, like as if they're kidding, but they will say oh, you're a bad yogi and I'm like, yeah. But there's still this perception of like, we we can say out loud that we feel good about not practicing. I don't think I feel good about not practicing. I feel good about allowing myself not to practice and to do this wholeheartedly. And give myself a pass of like, okay, do your work like it's working like crazy for me to get back to waking up so yeah, and working with people because I haven't done that. I think for extra you. Maybe you're in half before and got to teach so early. And it's people and Energy, you know, and you're there to support others. And what I learned out of the things that I learned in recovery is that if my tank is empty, I have nothing to give. Yes, go on empty. And in the practice doesn't like the asana practice doesn't necessarily fill me up all the time. It makes fill up my ego that I did it, you know, but, but I might be even more tired. And you know, just exhausted. Yeah. And this sounds like,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:05:35

it sounds like you're maturing Shere Khan.

Shiran Berkovich: 1:05:39

It's about time. I actually, I think, really enjoy. I want to say, I understand that I really enjoyed growing up. Getting older. I was really I love birthdays. I celebrate every age I get to. And yeah, I really love the fact that I chose to come to this world, even though you know, it's not easy. But yeah. What it was like, Yes, I made it.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:06:13

Well, were you Are you open to sharing where you are now? What age are you now?

Shiran Berkovich: 1:06:18

41 and a half.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:06:23

It's so funny, I turned, I turned 50 This month, and I started thinking, I gotta multiply 50 times 365 and see how many days because it's a funny thing. Like, ah, how many years old are we and then it's like a pretty nice, easy number to remember. But if I knew how many 1000s of days old I am, like, that's an interest for me just like to shift that perspective. Like, okay, I got another day, let's do another day versus another year, just to kind of change the perspective of the time shift because I don't know, I know, when my my mom passed a year and a half ago, and for me that I think was a big part of my transition from losing faith, to regaining faith. And, and, and with my practice with God with life with everything. And so yeah, when it comes back around, it feels good because it's like a little bit of maturity or and or just like, you know, you just turn a corner and you're just like, Oh my God, I don't have to freak out about these things anymore. It's okay, you know, so I'm with you, I love hearing your story. sron I think well, a you bring a ton of depth to the conversation I love that you your perspective on art, the way that you helped me to see that the way I look at things and how maybe I perceive them in my mind and the way that I could potentially express them be it through the medium of our and or maybe communication like I think I love podcasting. So I feel like my podcasting is almost my a part of my artistic lifestyle. So I really appreciate you taking your visual art, your yogic are your ability to write your your writing, art, your blogging, and then to bring it into the conversation part. I feel like you you didn't you, you are able, you have a good way of communicating things that are very difficult. I also really appreciate your willingness and openness to speak about some of your challenges. And to also be honest, that like, I'm actually happy not practicing sometimes, like that's a really good one. I think that's something that we need to get out into the community a little bit too, because that whole like, ooh, bad yogi. Like, that's just somebody else's challenge that they have with accepting that it would could potentially be okay to take a five day practice week versus a six day or so. I want to feel like we're getting close to the hour that you were made so generously available to me. I don't want to hold you a whole lot longer. I really do want to continue conversing with you though, because I enjoyed it so much. Is there any other subject topic or thought that pops up for you that you'd like to share with us before we turn the corner toward concluding our conversation together? Well,

Shiran Berkovich: 1:09:21

first, I want to say that I'm sorry for your mom's passing.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:09:25

Oh, thank you. It's a tough one. Do you still have your mom is your mom's?

Shiran Berkovich: 1:09:31

I have. I have both parents. And I actually, I feel like this growing experience. I didn't say but my my eating disorder recovery journey is very generously supported with a 12 step program. And it's called you know, that's, I can say things about that. It's called EDA eating disorders anonymous. I didn't.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:10:06

I didn't know that I didn't know that there was a 12 step variation for eating disorder.

Shiran Berkovich: 1:10:10

I think there are a few. But I find that this specific one really aligns with more softer, kinder, because it's not an abstinence based program, because you still eat, you know, and it's not about you're a bad person, if you do this, it's it's about being learning how to be softer with yourself, and also discover what are the things that are behind that habits. Because it's not about food, it's never about the thing that we chose to do. It's more about what we are trying to mandate through, you know, what we are trying to cope with using the methods we use. So, I still go to meetings, and I very slowly do the steps. It's another method, so I question it.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:11:06

But I need a method.

Shiran Berkovich: 1:11:10

Yeah, it's a method. So I still, you know, I'm okay. Okay. So I did very slowly, and I love the support of the group. I think it's one of the things that I this is like a huge difference. Me 10 years ago, not willing to be a part of the group, a group of eating disorder, a women because I'm like, oh, no, I don't have that. I'm totally fine. to 10 years later of like, Oh, my God, you know, we share the same things, you know, so it's like that openness to to be with people. So because of that aspect, I also do the steps but very slowly. So if we connect it to the parents part, I had, was very lucky to do the nine step was making amends with my parents. And getting to that place of just really honestly, not because it's a step not because I have to really wanting without getting nothing in return to apologize to my parents for the wrongs I did. Not saying that they never did anything wrong. Or that I was never hurt by them. But just to be able, truly not because it's a yoga ideal, or, I don't know, a forgiveness that was written some book, but just to really go through the process of actually being super angry, blaming, hurting, depressed and everything. And then being able to just sit there and just cry in front of them. Just tell them that I'm sorry. Wow. Yeah. So, yes. So I'm still in contact with my parents. Yeah. And I feel that that connection that I have with them, I don't know what they have with me. But how I am with them, it's just the best that it's ever been, in a realistic sense, not in an idealistic sense, but just in a very human accepting, compassionate way. And I think it's because I combined all of these words together and not. And it's letting go of the ideals that I've collected. I think that that made it possible.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:13:37

That's amazing. Doing that stuff is so important, because it's not until if we wait to even contemplate this until after they pass. So yeah, I'm so happy to hear that you've actually done that really difficult work. Maybe it wasn't so difficult. Maybe it was easy, but it's pretty difficult for most of us. So that's so cool that you, you're on, you're on it. Yeah, you're doing it, you're doing it and you're ahead of the curve. Because sometimes we don't come into the sort of ideas and thoughts until we don't have the opportunity to actually know that they heard or at least the sound vibration made it to their ears and they can decipher it how they like but yeah, well said well, you know, it's funny because someone else yesterday just told me about how they went to Al Anon meeting and they were just talking about how incredible the support structure of the 12 step program is. I have met so many people telling me like, how much benefit they get from the 12 step program by the weather, no matter which angle they're coming into it from so I'm really glad you're bringing that up because I I'm listening I appreciate it. I

Shiran Berkovich: 1:14:56

want to say you know if you know I'm here and I brought up this EDA thing is that I want to say that it's just no one deserves to live in this prison of eating disorders. And they come in a variety of ways. But I think it's it's good to, to give it some thought, If I don't know. If your training regime or way of eating or I don't know, counting calories, whatever it is. And even if you don't do that, just body checking, just those little things. Yeah, just see. If they're really liberating for you, or they are consuming you are consuming more time. Did you actually then you actually notice, I just want to say that there is help. available? There is.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:16:04

Yeah, cool. Sharon, that was perfect. Thank you for adding that piece in. That's what I think is so great about conversation. And for you listening. Thank you so much. And I feel like there's so much to be learned from other people's experience and journey. And it is very comforting to know, when you find somebody that you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm going through that too. It feels so like less isolated. More community support, which obviously we definitely can handle a little bit more of these days. In my opinion, and

Shiran Berkovich: 1:16:44

I couldn't agree more. There's something about the human connection, like but a real true heart to heart connection that is replaceable.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:16:58

Oh, man. Well, thank you so much, Rana. I'm going to continue to follow you comment and like and I'll share my tidbits. And I hope to have the chance to meet you in person one day, practice some yoga, and maybe even take an art class. If you ever do an art class where you incorporate online like a yoga like an online yoga and art workshop are something I definitely want to do something like that. I think I could probably progress from stick figures to robot figures like three dimensional little cubist little cubist people.

Shiran Berkovich: 1:17:39

Things. Oh, who knows? Maybe I'll get to Florida. I have some friends over there.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:17:45

That would be amazing. That would be awesome. Yeah, we have such a great group here. And we'd love to have you we could host you for an art slash yoga workshop. So when it's freezing cold in Germany, oh, that's coming up. Actually. It's gonna be freezing cold in Germany very soon come to Florida like I started come to Florida like in Jan or Feb. It's so beautiful here. It's just glorious. It's so amazing. All right, it's not hurricane season. And it's not hurricane Yeah, you have to not worry about it that you can swim in the ocean. You can walk around flip flops and go swimmin no problem. In the middle of winter, you'll be warm like Like sometimes the locals will go down to the beach in the middle of winter, we'll see people swim and when we think it's cold, and we're like, oh my god, they have to either be from Michigan or they got to be from like Germany or something because they're crazy. But it's really not that cold here. So we would love to have you. And thank you so much, John. I really appreciate it.

Shiran Berkovich: 1:18:40

Thank you so much.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:18:49

Native yoga Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time