Emma Stern - Somatic Awareness in Trauma Informed Yoga Spaces

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Check out this conversation with Emma Stern. This episode is titled Somatic Awareness in Trauma Informed Yoga Spaces. Emma is deeply passionate about bringing the trauma-informed lens into active asana practices and exploring ways in which yoga philosophy and somatic awareness can support social justice work. Emma is E-RYT 500 and YACEP.

Visit Emma on her website at : https://emmasternsomatics.com/
Follow her on IG at : @emmasternsomatics https://www.instagram.com/emmasternsomatics/

More links:

• yoga and trauma-informed movement education 
• therapy, coaching, and trauma-informed consulting
• yoga alliance (Search her name, There's no direct link)
• driven yogi trauma training 

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Transcript

Todd McLaughlin: 0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga, and check us out at Native yoga center.com. All right, let's begin Native Yoga Toddcast is just a little over three and a half years old now. And with over 23,000 downloads since its beginning, we're seeing an incredible amount of growth lately. And I just want to thank you so much for all your support. We have a new feature, click the link below and you can become a supporter for as little as $3 per month. You can help me to maintain the show and continue to bring incredible guests on and with a new release happening every Friday morning. Thank you so much for your support. Let's go ahead and get started with this next episode. Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, I'm delighted that you're here to hear the conversation that I had the opportunity of having with Emma Stern, Emma is an E-RYT 500 yoga teacher and also a licensed counselor. She is located in Portland, Oregon, and you can find her on her website, which is www.emmasternsomatics.com. Also find her on her instagram handle at the same handle name at @emma sternsomatics. During this conversation, I had a chance to learn more about mental health and the trauma informed movement and how it can be implemented into our either our yoga teaching or yoga practice and or the studio etiquette. I really hope that you enjoy this conversation, send us a comment, like and do a review at the end. We really appreciate it. Let's go ahead and begin. I'm so happy to have Emma Stern here today. Emma, thank you so much for joining me. How are you feeling today?

Emma Stern: 2:33

I'm feeling good. I'm excited to chat with you, Todd, thank you for having me.

Todd McLaughlin: 2:37

Well, thank you, I first saw you on an email that I received from Yoga Alliance. And you're offering a workshop and online workshop around the theme of trauma informed yoga. And that got me really piqued my interest, and then hence the chance to meet reach out to you. So first of all, I really appreciate you joining and being open and willing. And maybe that's a good place to start. Can you tell me how you first got started working or alongside with yoga Alliance?

Emma Stern: 3:12

Yeah, so thanks for asking me about that. Todd. So the yoga Alliance opportunity was really exciting. It was very much years in the making. So a little about me is that I'm a therapist, I hopefully will be licensed by the time this podcast comes out. I'm in the process of waiting for my paperwork approved, sort of the last step, but maybe not. I know we're probably going to be out in a week. So that might be me holding my breath a little bit. But I am an almost licensed therapist. And I've been a yoga teacher much longer. I've been teaching yoga, nine years. And I think for my own journey, I found yoga before mental health. I started doing yoga, probably 20 years ago at this point and just noticed I started feeling better, I started responding differently to things like a lot changed being in touch with my body. And that piqued my interest in mental health. And when I was in my first year of grad school, I started studying trauma informed yoga. And it was this beautiful platform. A lot of the approaches I had been exposed to were a little more clinical. And what I really struggled with is there's kind of a disconnect between this way of providing trauma informed care, and public yoga studio settings, which was where I was working. So I got really curious, I took a bunch of trainings and I really tried to apply my graduate school coursework into this idea of harm reduction in studio settings. And over the course of time I had lots of like very emotional Instagram and blog posts in 2020. I was finishing up school and had nothing to do I was suddenly you know, only assume yoga teacher with much more time and I just started talking a lot about harm reduction in studio spaces. And someone who's now a very dear friend and colleague Keisha Courtney happened to see some of the just essays I was writing and putting out there and asked me if I wanted to do a blog for her organization, the driven yogi, which is a learning platform. And that evolved into a lot more work together, Kesha gave me the opportunity to design my own course around harm reduction and CBF settings and trauma informed care. And kind of the pivotal moment, I think, this year yoga Alliance invited us to present on that we had a three part series. And it was just very, very exciting. It was so inspiring to share approaches to harm reduction and with like, a big audience that was super receptive and wanted these tools. So it's been a really exciting journey.

Todd McLaughlin: 5:52

Yeah. So cool. Can you just define for us harm reduction in relation to the studio?

Emma Stern: 6:01

Absolutely. And I'll explain trauma informed care to you because I think it kind of all goes together. So the idea of trauma informed care is that it is an approach to harm reduction, which I'll get to that essentially operates with the understanding of trauma. So you've learned XYZ, about trauma, you have kind of an understanding of how trauma shows up in the body, how it might show up in other dynamics, especially power dynamics. And with this understanding, you make conscious choices to reduce harm. And you know, the harm reduction lens is so perfect in yoga, because that's a Ahimsa right, non violence. So it really is part of the spiritual practice as well. And it's not to be perfect, right? This no one's perfect, I make mistakes, we all make mistakes as teachers. But the idea is to commit to reducing the harm that is kind of inevitable just in being human. And especially understanding that the yoga practice is interoceptive in nature, which means it encourages us to connect to what's showing up in our body. And we've learned that that's where our emotions live, right? That's where all of our past experience resides. So when we are sitting with these sensations of distress, a lot of the asanas shapes, right chair pose that's not comfortable at the very distressing shape. It's going to bring stuff up. Yeah. So if we can commit to harm reduction, while folks are doing what is essentially very therapeutic work, it's going to provide a little more safety for whatever may come up.

Todd McLaughlin: 7:38

That makes sense. Do Can you frame then how you would teach, say Chair Pose in a class where you have harm reduction as the lens that you're working through? Because like in a lot of yoga practices, that idea of like, I'm going to put you in chair pose and make you hold it for an unreasonable amount of time. Make you question everything. Why am I here? What am I doing? What how do you teach chair? chair yoga chair? Sorry, chair pose. Yeah. Or posture? Fierce posture?

Emma Stern: 8:13

Awkward pose? Yeah.

Unknown: 8:16

Yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 8:17

How do you do that in a way that you aren't instigating trauma if you're working with someone that is struggling, or having a change of heart?

Emma Stern: 8:27

So I love that question. And I think what I love most and I have a feeling it's going to be a theme, but our conversation is there's no right answer. Um, a lot of it has to do with what is reducing harm in a given moment. So for me, my background is power vinyasa, I. And I found in my own personal body. And I think for a lot of folks sitting with stillness when I first started practicing yoga was so much and a lot of that is kind of a result of where I was in my emotional journey. Like, having breath to movement practices, gave me a safe way to connect to my body. So that kind of actually, I think, also came from intensity, right, having these sensations that are so in your face, made it so I could connect. So I totally teach chair pose for like 20 minutes. I think it's actually a joke with most of my students. Last year, that never ends. My approach to harm reduction, which might be different than another teachers is agency. You do not have to be here forever. You get to choose when you're taking breaks. And that is your wisdom, right? Like that is your wisdom that's telling you can you stay Can you back off? Can you soften the shape? Like do you need to come out a little? Do you want to soften your shoulders? It's really encouraging students to trust exactly what's showing up in their body like I'm here, but I'm not in your body. You are the expert on yourself.

Todd McLaughlin: 9:53

Nice. Did you Did I hear you say correctly, a 20 minute Chair Pose.

Emma Stern: 9:59

Yeah, bye That was an exaggeration. I probably keep students in it close to two men, I am a big fan of chercheurs. Like, let's let's the heels, let's throw in some lap poles. But what's really cool about the yoga practice is that an Asana in particular, it gives us the physical capacity to learn to regulate our stress response. And I think I love chair coats, I love that that comes up in the first 10 minutes of us talking, I think that's very much a reflection of me as a person. But if you can learn to regulate and take care of your body and Chair Pose, what a metaphor for what you will bring into your life and other aspects of this yoga practice, which in its nature, is a beautiful practice of how we show up in the world.

Todd McLaughlin: 10:45

That's so cool. Emma, you know, you mentioned that you started with yoga, but now you're right on the precipice of receiving your license to work as a licensed therapist. Is that mean, like a licensed psychotherapist? Are we are we in that realm? Yeah,

Emma Stern: 11:00

yeah. So I will be what is in Oregon, called a professional counselor in California, where I started, its Professional Clinical Counselor, and in some other states that has different names. It's fascinating how cross state lines, names change of different types of therapy. But I specialize in working with trauma, which I think really was something that sparked from my passion for yoga, and just learning how much physical practices and somatic practices can be healing. Also, I think with yoga philosophy, there's a lot of kind of beauty we can make of our experiences, right, like transforming them into something greater than the self. So yeah, that's been kind of the biggest piece of my journey through the past. I guess I started grad school like seven or eight years ago, which is wild. It's really exciting that it's that this chapter where

Todd McLaughlin: 11:57

congratulations, that's amazing. Did. Thank you, you said you started taking trauma informed workshops or trainings in that arena. And then you decided that you wanted to then pursue your counseling degree or your your masters Is that how it kind of started,

Emma Stern: 12:18

it was actually just yoga. And then my master's, so kind of what happened was, I was working in the nonprofit world, which is, unfortunately, in a lot of cases, very exhausting. I loved the work I was doing. I worked for a nonprofit that did a lot of work around immigrant rights and reform and legislation. It was primarily lawyers, and I was on the administrative side of things not being a lawyer. And this organization did absolutely incredible work. However, I was burnt out, and a lot of the people I was working with were exhausted and burnt out. And it was ironic, because I was already teaching yoga at that point. And I saw a lot of my yoga students who ironically, were also in different types of legal reform. I saw the way in which this practice was keeping them from being birthed out. And it just really inspired me that I wanted as I kind of progressed in my career to do something more similar to yoga, and I was a full time yoga teacher for a while. Unfortunately, you know, doing Power vinyasa, I do think there's ways to make it sustainable. It's very hard economically, and it's a lot on your body. But you know, as we transform in our practice, there's ways to do it. But I didn't think as someone who had this very, what's authentic to me, it's a very rigorous connection with the asana practice, that wasn't sustainable. It's full time work forever. So I shifted into learning more about Cymatics. Like, why is it that this practice is really helping people, and that piqued my interest in somatic psychology? So my master's was a somatic focused program. And it was like all of these seemingly disconnected things that meant a lot to me. Suddenly, were being pieced together in a puzzle. Wow, this is so powerful. This connection we have to our bodies,

Todd McLaughlin: 14:23

so transformative, very cool. Can you can you define the word Cymatics? For us?

Emma Stern: 14:30

Absolutely. And I again, I love that you asked this question, because it's this word we all throw out and kind of get mystified. So much is the lack. It's either Latin or Greek. I should probably Google and double check, but it's the root word Soma means body. And Cymatics is essentially anything that is a mind body connection. So yoga, tai chi, could also be Pilates. It could be bike riding, it could be walking, meditation, of course. worse, but it's anything that allows us to integrate our awareness of what's happening in our body. And what's so fascinating is the power to kind of shift our experience when we have that awareness. So a lot of people have noticed that that's where real therapeutic change, happen connecting the cognitive with the feeling experience.

Todd McLaughlin: 15:23

That's cool. And I, when you when you mentioned the word Cymatics, having the root of Soma, I just recently reread Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. And I don't know if you've read that or remember. And yeah, I have, there's like a drug used in this like brave new world called Soma that like just makes everything like, perfect, I guess. And then, but it's interesting, have you heard about in the Rig Veda, how there's the soma, in the Rig Veda and the Vedas there's, there's this idea that Soma was some sort of beverage that was used. And there's all this speculation about what was in the beverage in some of the rituals and old time India. Have you ever heard any connections between the that in the word Cymatics? As we're using it nowadays? No, but

Emma Stern: 16:13

I would love to more because honestly, there are so many ways in which and this is a whole tangent, but the West likes to pretend that it invented this thing. And it didn't really I mean, like, Yeah, honestly, somatic is being somatic is a tradition in so many different cultures. It's not this amazing new development, this innate ability that so many humans knew about. And unfortunately, we are rediscovering because of disconnection that has happened in culture and over time, but I would definitely let's learn more about that. I'm going to actually write down a little post it and that research after a conversation

Todd McLaughlin: 16:55

you come up with I've been I thought was really funny. When I read the whole the Huxley book and some up here again, I'm like, huh, all this obviously was reading some beta literature. Vedic literature. Yeah. That's cool. So then when you get your certificate and or you are officially licensed? What are you hoping to do? What's your dream?

Emma Stern: 17:22

Well, it's funny, because not a lot changes for me in Oregon. And this kind of goes into how different states have different ways of operating with therapists. But I'm already a private practice, the main thing that changes is right now I work with the supervisor. And once I'm license, I don't have to work with supervisor anymore. I'm sure I'll still call her often for consultation. But I won't have that built into my schedule. So actually, a lot stays the same, which is really exciting for me when I was in California used to live in California, you can't be a private practice as an associate. So it's something you have to work up to. And this is really been for me. Like, I don't know if the dream is the word but really the goal because being in private practice sort of gives you the flexibility to support yourself, sustain yourself, but also kind of design your caseload right, like how many pro bono clients do I have capacity to see. So it makes it a lot easier for me to work and be aligned with my values. And I love it. I really love being a therapist.

Todd McLaughlin: 18:32

It sounds amazing. I know. I'm super intrigued. That's cool. I, I keep talking about this on almost every podcast lately, because I'm still reading it. But I'm reading the Body Keeps the Score by Vonda. And it's just a transformative book. I'm finding it absolutely fascinating. And I love that as a psychiatric doctor. He really he's a big fan of somatic therapies and yoga and breath work and Tai Chi and everything else. Can you tell me anything that you've gleaned from reading that book?

Emma Stern: 19:04

Oh, so much. I mean, I think that's the book everyone should read. Because really, the whole idea of the Body Keeps the Score, your body takes memories of things. And that's kind of what happens in trauma is that our bodies are actually these incredibly resilient vessels. I think we have this kind of misunderstanding of a trauma response is a bad thing, but it's actually a beautiful thing that keeps you sustainable in a situation that really should have never happened to you. bodies have evolved to respond in certain ways that might be dissociating, it might be fight or flight that we look at in a certain way but that is what keeps you able to move forward in your life. Now where we kind of get sticky is where Our body holds a memory of those things. So a situation that feels similar might bring up that residue that might make you move into fight or flight a little quicker and might make you dissociate. So the idea is that through working on our mind body connection, we kind of take that power back. It's not saying it's perfect, we flip a switch, but over time, we find a little more spaciousness to kind of feel okay, and feeling these feelings. But I'm going to look at the situation and kind of decide how I want to respond. And that book is just so amazing, because I think it brought this knowledge, which again, a lot of different practices had this knowledge and kind of got lost in the West. But it brought this knowledge into a public arena, by a doctor, right, someone who's super respected, and it is just kind of this big wake up call to really like, oh, wow, this is what's happening. This way in which a lot of us are suffering.

Todd McLaughlin: 21:02

Yes. It's amazing. Yeah, thank you for saying, all right. But I know I keep wanting to try to pull that out of people to get all the listeners to actually read it. It's a powerful one. Yeah, that's cool.

Emma Stern: 21:14

It is the other books I would add, I really love Peter Levine. Peter Levine writes a book called in an unspoken voice. Do you think it's a great companion to Body Keeps the Score. And Gabor Makabe has a book right now called the myth of normal, which is incredible. So really good companions. And all of these authors really stress the importance of mind body connection and somatic work in our healing.

Todd McLaughlin: 21:42

Yes, I just finished the one by Gabor Matta that was that was a good one for sure. Yeah, great. Yeah, a little while, but it was.

Emma Stern: 21:51

I have a joke with a friend that I actually still finished the newest ones. I've read a bunch of older books. But it is like the book that it just takes a long time to digest. Yeah, so I'm about halfway through my friend is like to check through and it's like, the book of the year, we're going to be processing it through the next year.

Todd McLaughlin: 22:11

I agree with you on that. Did you? Do you teach trauma informed trainings for yoga teachers?

Emma Stern: 22:21

Yeah, so right now through the driven yogi, which I can actually give you the website, I forgot to do that. But I think it's Google driven yogi, it's the first thing that comes up. I have an online training, and also through the driven yogi or through myself, I can offer continuing ed, that's something we do with studios sometimes. My preference is definitely I love working with teachers on harm reduction at nd just in public classes, right? It's, it feels like a normal studio class, like for a lot of I think, teachers who are starting to practice harm reduction. But it's slight differences in how that class happens. So I teach right now, I'm only teaching two classes, one public one in Portland and one online period. And I assume, and those are both trauma informed. And the idea of trauma informed is it's harm reduction, right? It's not perfect, I'll have moments all messed up like anyone else. But there's a commitment made to I want to recognize the positional power I have as a teacher as a yoga class, and I want to really honor your agency, what you know about your body, and how you take care of yourself. That has to be for me, that's the first priority.

Todd McLaughlin: 23:38

Nice. How, if I if I wanted to take your course, is it zoom alive? Is it recorded videos? Or is it a combination? How is the structure of it?

Emma Stern: 23:52

Yeah, so the course through the German yogi is an online pre recorded course. I also have a few pre recorded webinars, which are free for yoga Alliance members, that's going to be more introductory. But there's a three part series Sikh yoga Alliance members can access in the archives, and studios can hire me to do live trainings as well. So it really it's kind of dependent on I think, learning styles and what makes the most sense for what people are looking for.

Todd McLaughlin: 24:22

So if I wanted to have you teach our studio trauma informed training, that means you would only be working with yoga teachers per se, is that correct? And then yeah, and you do that over the zoom or you fly in? How does how does that work?

Emma Stern: 24:43

Yeah, it's really studios preference. It could be either, um, I would say I don't think there's a huge difference in whether it's super in person. It's nice to being in person, right? Because there's kind of a felt sense of Just Yes, what is happening in the room that can be hard on Zoom. But zoom has benefits, too. What I really like about doing trauma trainings on Zoom is that the reality is this is hard material, you might need to take a break and you're in the comfort of your own home, you could turn off your camera, you can pet your dog. That's my regulation, right? Do whatever you need. So there are benefits to the online platform. There's kind of pros and cons with each.

Todd McLaughlin: 25:30

Yeah, I hear. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah, they're not needed to travel the all that stuff is huge. But you're right, the the in person element is amazing. What was your experience in relation to COVID? And now being in person? Did you have any sort of revelations in that process of being separated? And then having the opportunity and ability to be in studio with people?

Emma Stern: 25:55

That's a great question. I think for so many of us, just like major shifts and reflection happened. For me, I think, really, my teaching change tremendously pre COVID, I was more alignment focus, and post COVID a much more somatic awareness. And the trauma informed piece of the teaching is so much more important to me like this is the practice that helps you support your nervous system. Yes. And another big change is I don't touch people anymore. So prior to COVID, I am I've looked at that a lot. It's really fascinating, because I think some of it was my own, like internalized pressure of this is what a yoga teacher should do. This is what studios like, and I've really sat with it. And it's not that I dislike hands on adjustments and or don't think they can be trauma informed. I do think it's possible. There's a lot of education around consent, and a lot of ways in which we can explore what that looks like in classes. However, for me, I've noticed that it feels like the harm reduction is just not touching. Because even if you have consent, or so many factors, it's such an intimate experience. Yeah. So it's not like I think it's a bad thing. But it's just easier for me to say, there's a lot that can happen. So I'm just gonna take this piece outside of the teaching,

Todd McLaughlin: 27:22

it is a fascinating way to really think about literally what kind of actual dynamic is occurring in this process of touching this individual. When you're offering when you're offering, say, one on one counseling sessions. And if somebody's in your office, do from a professional therapeutic approach or perspective, try to not do hands on like, say someone's crying, and you think I could just go over and give them a hug. But from a professional perspective, is that something that we tried not to do, even though we might know it might help but then we are careful, because we think, but then what if it gets read the wrong way? What what is that approach? And that that sort of professional environment?

Emma Stern: 28:06

That's another great question. Ironically, I'm online. My practice is fully telehealth. So it's not for me. Yeah, but I really think what's so challenging is there's not a right answer. And I did graduate from there's only three somatic graduate programs in the country. And we were taught ways we could use touch as a modality as somatic therapists. And I do believe it's incredibly powerful. I had a therapist at one point who had a massage background and use touch and I had huge, you know, therapeutic breakthroughs, like it was a very powerful experience, what I will say is we had a lot of safety, that relationship had really been built. And I think what's so challenging is that it's such a subjective thing, right? There might be moments where that hug is going to be so healing, right? Or, you know, even just putting your hand on someone's shoulder or something like that. And it also, you know, if they don't feel like they're able to express a boundary because I think what's so complex is a lot of folks who have trauma also might have kind of people pleasing tendencies. So they'll be the least likely to say, I don't like that. So yeah, I think it's practitioners really working to build safety, working to give folks agency you know, always checking in, right, is this okay? Are you sure this is okay? But also trying to intuit that space between what someone's saying and what you suspect is showing up for them? Yeah, complex.

Todd McLaughlin: 29:48

Yeah, it is great answer that I like the way he explained all that. If so, you've been practicing yoga for 20 years, myself as well. And say you flashback or not funny that's wrong. Where do you You think about 20 years ago? Yeah. And and the way our culture has been shifting, moving, changing, evolving. Can you think of something that occurred 20 years ago that now you look at and go, that definitely has changed?

Emma Stern: 30:18

Yeah, so many things. I mean, I think something I hear really grateful about. It's kind of ironic, but I started doing yoga. I went to a performing arts charter school and yoga was my gym class, which was amazing. Sounds like high school is that yeah, high school.

Todd McLaughlin: 30:33

Yeah, that's cool. Um, you said was east coast that was was that yeah,

Emma Stern: 30:39

it was in Western Mass. The school is Pioneer Valley Performing Arts charter school, it's still there. Incredible. So I feel very lucky to have had a very different a the peaceful experience there. And my yoga teacher in high school, it was really a special experience, like yoga was kind of our PE credit. We would have homework like journal about the Yoga Sutras, and it was a really cool way to be exposed to this scary. Yeah, it was very meaningful. And I think, yeah, that's so it's kind of the exception. I think a lot of what was happening 20 years ago. But I think one of the main things is a lot of, you know, not consent around touch, not giving students agency. And for me, myself, I remember, you know, as I'm very competitive, and athletic, so I would go into these classes, and if a teacher was encouraging, sometimes you just have to push through it, I'd be like, Okay. And, you know, it's, I don't necessarily have, I have some experiences, I look back on paid to shutter, but most of them, I was fine. And I think that goes back to, as teachers to our students are incredibly resilient. I still believe in fully practicing harm reduction when we can, and also honoring our students are really strong, they have survived a lot. But yeah, I definitely have some moments from earlier on in my time practicing yoga that I kind of shudder when I think about. But it's really cool. Because a lot of the teachers I practice with early on, I see them making changes, right? And that's, to me a true commitment to video, get practice. It's easy to attach, right? Like sometimes when I do trauma trainings, people really struggle with consent, ironically, around touch, but there's this idea of I've been teaching so long, my students know me, like, it's going to interrupt my flow and cadence to be constantly asking for consent. And they think there's kind of a sitting with it that needs to be done. Like, yeah, this is going to change things, and kind of processing. And this is the work. But it is it's really inspiring for me when I see folks I practice with early on, especially like, you know, I really think about my first yoga teacher, Jasmine Uttarkashi, who's so amazing and really lives this practice I practice with her when I was in the bay and it was just so beautiful to see ways in which she's made subtle shifts in her training, or teaching excuse me, as time has gone on. And I see the curriculum, right how the curriculum and that changing training has changed a little bit. It's mostly on desktop now it's laughing Lotus when I did the practice and yeah, it's just so cool to me to see people really living out these values and being open to change. Yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 33:43

I agree with you. Because there's gonna sink or float type of situation right? Like if we're extremely resistant to change it's only a matter of time before you know that last woman or Last Man Standing idea like it's sometimes we put people we put a situation like I'm the last one holding out ya know? And that that that's a badge of honor. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Like I don't know, then there's just changing with society evolving with society feels really good to like, be all talking about these things and moving along together it can actually be a fairly fun and engaging process to to embrace change.

Emma Stern: 34:26

Absolutely. Sorry, I just turned my echo I got through

Todd McLaughlin: 34:31

it all. And so when you said that, I know right? It's it does that when you hear yourself it's not the worst thing to call somebody on the phone and like you everything you say you hear yourself back like this is not gonna work. I gotta call you back. When you said when you do these trainings that sometimes you know, anytime. Let me start over. So I just read I remember Vander Kolk. In his book, he said something like nobody wants to remember trauma. Right? Like it's not a fun thing. like we're not, oh, I can't wait to wake up tomorrow and start digging in on remembering all that. But the power that comes from acknowledging it, talking about it, and letting like acknowledging, basically, instead of stuffing it down, do when you do these trainings, you said that sometimes people like have a hard time processing because you're we're talking about things that are difficult. Can you explain a little bit about your methodology or technique of teaching when these sort of things come up?

Emma Stern: 35:33

Yeah. And that's a great question. I'm glad you asked. So even prior to teaching, something I like to share when I do these trainings is that when I was first exposed to trauma informed yoga, my initial response wasn't Yeah, I can't wait to do this. It was no, that doesn't work in the studio, that I can't do that in my class. And it was a lot of intimidation and shame around. I'm not doing it that way. Does that mean I'm hurting people? It really, yeah, I have to do a lot of reflection on okay. I have these tools. Now. What can that look like? Like? How can I apply this? Because I think a lot of the earlier trauma trainings, and some just trauma trainings. In general, they're more. And that's why I say like, harm reduction, instead of this is going to be perfectly executed. Because to truly, truly be providing trauma treatment, it's clinical, it's not going to happen in a public yoga space where you don't have control of the environment. So in a public yoga setting, how can we work towards harm reduction, right, there's still so many factors that are outside of our control. It's not a clinical setting where I have the safe office and and that's the irony is even in the safe office, you know, things can happen. But when I first was exposed to this lens, I had to really sit with and process what it meant for me as a teacher. And this comes up a lot when I do the trainings. And I'd like to say I handle it perfectly every time I don't. I think it's been a learning curve for me, you know, not to get defensive. If someone doesn't want to ask for consent. I've definitely had moments where I've kind of to, like, take a step back and be like, How can I be curious about why this person is feeling challenged by this lens? And how can I support? You know, kind of what they're already doing? And where can they get curious about kind of the disconnect? Because there's a lot of it's sort of like a fragility response, like you will and I would also add, so my approach to the training is, you know, anti racism as part of it, right? A lot of this overall harm reduction work is part of it. And it was kind of surprising to me, the first time I offered this training and kind of experienced the fragility response. And I had to sit back and be like, I had a fragility response, the first time I saw this work, because I think the idea of harming folks can be a mobilizing, we don't want to hurt people. So sometimes when we're exposed to a platform that might suggest what we're doing is inadvertently hurting people we freeze. So ironically, the yoga practice and itself provides a lot of the tools for working with this right so Matic attendants to it's showing up in our nervous system. But it's hard sometimes in the trainings like if I suggest I'll stop, and I'll be like, Hey, do you want to check in see how everyone's doing? And it's really interesting, like some, I'd say, actually more common, because we're not talking about traumas per se, as much as harm reduction. It's that fragility that comes in versus a memory with that I definitely. They both happen, right? I've had, I think the two things that happen are the fragility and then sometimes after the fact folks sharing, well, I have this background. And usually I find that folks, and again, it's just who chooses to disclose. So I don't know if it's everyone, but folks who choose to disclose to me that they have a trauma background are often like, I'm really grateful this work is being done. Thank you for thinking about these things. So, you know, it brings up so many different things for different people. And I'm only aware of what people choose to tell me. I'm sure there's more.

Todd McLaughlin: 39:40

Right. So that's brought up say the folks that identify as having a trauma filled background coming in to becoming a trauma informed teacher working with that lens versus somebody who doesn't have that background or maybe is not aware that they have that background or that that you see a relative difference between those two components? It makes sense. I mean, because like, yeah, saying who feels it knows it? Right? If you Yeah, you know it, but to try to explain it to someone who hasn't, it's so difficult. So, but at the same time, I understand we want to be careful not like, you know, homogenized it into this idea. But what what do you think about that?

Emma Stern: 40:30

Yeah, well, and I just think it's so complex, because the irony, I feel like we need language beyond trauma, right, because we have our quote, unquote, capital T, traumas, things we all know are really bad. But also trauma is subjective. It's how your nervous system responds to something. So what's traumatic for me might not be traumatic for you, and vice versa. And I would say, we've all experienced nervous system dysregulation we've all, every human has experienced kind of what starts to happen when you lose connection to your body and feel overwhelmed. So I think there's it's so fascinating, you know, the statistics on trauma are

Unknown: 41:15

so high. And it's Yeah, we really are opening terrified. Yeah.

Emma Stern: 41:22

Yeah. To me, it's more. And this is an assumption that it's not a fact. But I kind of think we all have some trauma. It's folks who are aware and have kind of started looking at their own that can look at these tools and be like, wow, this really means a lot to me. Yeah, and you know, even with that, it's so interesting. Sometimes we'll get the feedback. Like, I've survived XYZ, like you don't need to hold my hand. addictive. How different people? Yeah, yeah. Being humans complicated, really complicated.

Todd McLaughlin: 42:00

Oh, my gosh, that makes me think about if I try, I don't want to play devil's advocate. But if there was a devil's, okay, if there's a devil's advocate response of like, the world is going a little too much in the direction of being hyper aware of, say, trauma. Like, for example, I was driving here to meet with you and a bolt of lightning hit close enough by that my car vibrated in my I felt my body kinda like, you know, like, I had that like, yeah, reaction. And then I'm like, huh, like, was that trauma? You know? And are we getting too hypersensitive to trauma? Or is it that we've been so desensitized from acknowledging that everything has some sort of impact on our life? That now we're starting to acknowledge the impact? Everything does have? Does that make sense?

Emma Stern: 43:03

Absolutely. And the latter, I mean, it all, it all resonates with me, the latter really resonates with me hugely. Yeah. And I think we're just getting so much more aware of our bodies, that we need more language, we need more language and understanding. And it's kind of interesting, because time has become so trendy, right, that folks often ask me how I feel about that. And overall, I feel good about it. Because more understanding means more work is being done. And there's more general care. Does that mean that there's not, you know, expressions of trauma work? That makes me nervous? No, there's absolutely that. And also, with this general narrative, shifting towards an awareness, I think there's a lot of space for change. And there's also it's just so complex, right? I think we're just getting so much more aware of what we don't know and what our bodies feel.

Todd McLaughlin: 44:09

I agree. It'll be fascinating. 20 years from now to look back and literally, is our conversation like, what will this conversation sound like, you know, 10? Yes.

Emma Stern: 44:19

Absolutely. I listen to conversations I've had and I cringe. We all could because we learned so much more. And yeah, I think some of the work is just being curious, being open to change. And, like, I'm glad I'm really glad that this work is being done in a large scale. That's a good thing overall. Yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 44:41

I agree. I was yesterday I was trying to mull over some different questions I could come up for with you and I was listening to lithium on a XM and it's like 90s And there's a station yeah, there's a band Dinosaur Jr. Which I don't know if you've heard of them. They have a song. I have a lyric that says I feel the pain of everyone. And then I feel nothing. Like, I've always liked that song. But I think maybe I could relate to that, because I remember I was like a teenager, looking at the world and feeling like, you know, I went through a relatively like tumult, teenage experience of like looking at the world and going, Well, how do I fit into this? And that seems like a lot of gnarly stuff has happened, you know? And how do I reconcile my existence with all of this crazy stuff that's happened and, and then that the second line, then I feel nothing. Is that like a dissociative experience? Or to not feel anything after feeling the pain of everyone? I don't know. I just keep thinking about that. Like, that just seems like a really interesting lyric. If I know it's hard. I don't know if that's fair to throw that at you right now. But how would you, in your own experience? Reconcile that that line?

Emma Stern: 46:03

Well, I am a big fan of 90s. Grunge and angst, I think a lot of us who grew up, you know, for me, it was more of 1000, but grew up in the 90s and 1000s. There's a lot of toxic things happening culturally and also also having a turbulent childhood, right? We look at anything, teenagers, teenagers are in there feeling Graham, right, their prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed, and feelings are so strong, like you're like a sponge. So kind of making sense of feeling. Especially like you're naturally to a part of that prefrontal cortex not being fully developed, you're kind of self centered, or as a teenager, it's just how I certainly was just how a lot of us were, we feel the weight of our world, we we do have, I think, a lot of empathy at that age to we feel it's like that both and you can be very in your experience, as well as looking at things and how they might make people feel because your feelings are so strong. That you feel so much. And also Yeah, that numbing to me. It's a deeply somatic lyric. It's it is aware lyric. Yeah, totally. Like, there's so much a lot to see. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if I could it's, for me, it's more of an appreciation, which is I think what you have of like, wow, there and to me, I think it's showing kind of the right culture for Holy crap. So much is happening. I feel so much. There's so much suffering, you know, and we use the term suffering. It's kind of a losing game. I see my clients do this, where it's like, there's always someone who's had it worse than I have. And it's like, there will always be someone who's had it worse. But that doesn't mean your feelings are invalid. It doesn't mean you're witnessing things cancel out. Yeah, I just think there's a lot there. I will have any Thanks. I appreciate the lyric too. After our chat. Yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 48:06

Next time you hear it, you're like, huh, do I do I feel anything now? That's cool. What, how? Okay, you're going through a power vinyasa flow practice. you're transitioning, I'm just making something up from up dog down dog and you feel like a sensation that just caught you off guard and you're, you know, a hamstring pop or wrist pain. And what do you do? Now currently, in your in your exists in your current experience? Like when you're feeling sensation in your body? I guess I wanted to ask this question, because coming from my own personal teenage angst experience when I went into yoga, then it was like, Yeah, I dropped into Bikram yoga in 2000, which was like, just a mad world just a wild and crazy, not trauma informed teach. If there was an opposite, in my opinion, that would have been it. And, you know, push through your pain, push through your pain, push, push, push, right. And now I'm like, that's just not really how I go about it. What is what is your How is how is that evolving for you these days?

Emma Stern: 49:26

Oh, great question. Nowadays, there's a lot more stop and sit with and kind of figure out what I wanted to do for that particular example, right, like a wrist injury. However, what's fascinating is it's going to be different for me in my personal practice, based on the shape and what I'm feeling, something I've really enjoyed, probably in the last like, five, maybe 10 years of my yoga practice, just getting really curious about is the bofi And that shows up in our body, I find this in a lot of both legs and postures. And yeah, places where we can be both something and something else. So let's say you're in warrior two, and you choose to keep your shoulders really soft, your legs are grounded, rooted fears, maybe burning a little bit. And then you also have the softness in your body. And to me, getting curious about those moments is really reflective of in life, where we have the space to change. And we sit with the discomfort and also find, and it's also where I find like the space for human connection, right? Like, can we have a moment of discomfort between us, but instead of being fully on the tension, I'm gonna get curious where there's softness, if I'm safe, and if I can stay present. Yeah, so yeah, the yoga practice is like such a cool metaphor for, you know, and it's going to be different, right? There's going to be times, a lot of my work has been really trusting my body, like if I know I need to stop, I'm going to stop. If I know I need more intensity, I'm going to take it I'm gonna kind of trust what my nervous system is telling me. And that I think there's a lot of unlearning, especially if you've been practicing for 20 years and come from something like the cramps. It's like the teacher knows best right? And I love a set sequence for me. It's more I love Ashtanga. I love the rocket sequence. It's not my main jam, but I love to dabble and I'm not gonna lie I have a I don't want to use the word guilty pleasure because I think a lot of the folks still teaching like the Bikram style have reformed a lot of them I've changed their name right to like hot 26 or whatever. I love it. There's something about a set sequence where because you're doing the same thing you can really witness different things showing up in your body. Yeah, it's Have you noticed I love to ask you questions.

Unknown: 52:02

Yeah

Emma Stern: 52:05

I would love to know for you like starting with that kind of yoga practice. And just being someone so curious about this practice right you know podcast about it. You're so curious and obviously love this practice so much like how is that shifted for you through the years and like what have you seen?

Todd McLaughlin: 52:22

Oh, thank you for give me the opportunity to hear your problem. So my first experience with yoga was when I was 18 I or I started hanging out with the Hari Krishna and Krishna Consciousness Movement so I was more chanting mantra doing sort of karma work with you know, getting the they do all this free food at the university that I was staying. So I started taking Baba get the Bhagavad Gita classes and all that sort of stuff. So there was no there was no Asana happening. And then yeah, kind of got you know, like, feel like with yoga. It's like we keep you know, I can just get into a whole new world of yoga or something. And so then when I started going to be calm, it was like, Whoa, what is this type of yoga? This is like totally different. really different, really hot, really challenging and I loved it because I just got such an incredible feeling like just endorphin feeling, I think from it from the exercise element and the heat. So fast forward to now I you know, I actually went through a really interesting thing because I at Bikram yoga teacher training when I was in California, there was you know, 300 people in the room and it was just a really large group and there was all sorts of wild things happening and three days in I had a really horrific experience where I dehydrated so badly that my body my whole entire body started cramping up from my toes and fingers toward my midsection, so I wasn't laying in the towel, screaming, you know, how's it going? Well, that caught everybody's attention. And they called Bikram over and Bikram came in, put his hand on my chest and shook me really hard and say Get up, boss, get up. And I was like, you know, in that shock moment of like, how am I going to get up I can't even move right now my body hurts so bad, but it did reset my nervous system. And so then when I stood up, I was really like, wah wah, you know, like really kind of like spacey and you feel like when you go into dehydration, it's a very kind of weird thing. Like, you can't, it's just weird. It's really uncomfortable. And after that, he just kind of turned to me and said, You're the kind of person that's gonna get me sued. And I was like, Dude, I don't care about talking about man and I couldn't really reconcile. Wow, it was just a very so then wow, I kind of went through a phase like I knew my wife and I ended Bikram studio in San Diego. And so we were like, We gotta get out of here. This dude's gonna go down and we're gonna have his name on Wow. And so we sold that and moved over here to junior earn Florida where we've been here for last 17 years. We have a student but I'm a I stopped teaching Bikram and I stopped practicing it because I couldn't separate. Everyone kept telling me separate the man from the yoga. You know, they kept saying the yoga is great. So just take the gnarly parts of Bikram out and just do the yoga, right. And then I just couldn't do that. I felt like every time I went into the Bikram class, I just felt him. You know what I mean? Like I couldn't separate

Emma Stern: 55:23

after that experience. Yeah. So

Todd McLaughlin: 55:25

now, I completely stopped. I haven't gone back. And then it was interesting around COVID time, you know, to hold the studio down through all that was really challenging financially. So someone came in and said, Will you do a one hour hot yoga class, and I hadn't taught or took a Bikram class for like, 17 years. So I thought, why not? You know, why not? I have it in there. It's I did it 100 million times over and over again. I might as well try. So I tried it. And I was like, no, no, it's not for me anymore. So So I guess just to answer your question, that's been the evolution for me with it. But when you say I have this guilty pleasure of going, I do want to go back again. Like, I'd be totally open to it. I know I could. I it's just yoga. It's just breathing. I can separate now, I think a little better the the intensity of the individual that first delivered it to me, I think I could separate it, but it's taken me a little bit of time.

Emma Stern: 56:27

Thank you so much for sharing your story.

Unknown: 56:30

I loved hearing it.

Emma Stern: 56:33

Yeah, some pieces, I found really cool and inspiring. Where that? I mean, like what a different group of different facets of exposure you've had to the yoga practice. And then what I love about your story, and I think we need to hear more of is that, you know, in this training, like, you're able to get back up, it was okay, you're not the person who sued him even though that accusation which is really harmful happened. Like it is. It's very much a story of, we need to hear more stories like this, because there's a lot of resilience there, right? Like, this pretty yucky thing happened to you. And you were okay. And you did something so empowering and inspiring. You're like, Okay, I'm gonna look at I love this practice. I want it in my life. But this doesn't feel right. Like I don't want to be the shepherd of these kinds of experiences. And I just wow, like what a cool and inspiring story about how you've navigated the complexity and sifted through it. Thank you so much for sharing.

Todd McLaughlin: 57:35

So Emma. Well, thanks for Yeah, I hear you. I mean, this is the cool thing about just keeping practicing. Right? Like, I've had so many times. I don't know how I'm gonna keep this up, you know, but somehow, I'm just so thankful for yoga. I can't even tell you how totally amazing, this whole thing.

Emma Stern: 57:56

Yeah, well, and this is kind of a left field conversation. But I see so many teachers burnout on their personal practices when they become teachers. And it's your personal practice, that it's being a student first, to me, that is everything and helps us, you know, just that right, separate people from this practice, which is so incredible points. Of course, people are imperfect. That's why we have this practice, you know,

Todd McLaughlin: 58:23

I thought was really interesting reading in the Body Keeps the Score, we were saying that the first responders and the amount of stress that they encounter, yeah, in that field and the burnout rate? And yeah, right. Like you wouldn't think as a yoga teacher like why, like in the ideal, say, rose colored yoga teacher world, wouldn't we? You would start teaching and then why would you burn out? Like how could burnout even be a possibility? If you're practicing yoga and breathing and taking care of yourself, but it's just not that simple as

Emma Stern: 59:01

it's not. And I think a lot of ways, just like how therapists are a different type of first responder, yoga teachers are too because a lot of folks come to the yoga practice. I think my, you know, teenage, early 20s Self is a great example. I didn't cognitively know that this practice was healing me. And it was and I knew that I felt better. And I just wanted to keep going. And even if there's no discussion, there's an energetic thing that happens in yoga spaces. And it's really, it's really secret and beautiful and yoga teachers, I think, really need those self care tools. Because even if it's pre verbal, something really intense is happening in your presence. And how cool is that? As well as how important is it that you also, you know, take care of yourself?

Todd McLaughlin: 59:51

Yeah. Well said. Oh, my gosh, Jim, I will I don't I want to be respectful of your time and we're so close to our hour mark. I And I am feeling like we could just probably go for the three to four hour tour here. We'll start with session one. And then yes, we'll see what happens over the next few years. And if we've, if we'll look back on this conversation, and we'll we'll reconvene, Oh, totally. I'm curious. What did I miss? What do you want to add? What else do we need to know about you?

Emma Stern: 1:00:27

I don't think you really missed anything. This was just such a lovely conversation tied it really and I love hearing more about your story. I hope that's something I listen to a few episodes of the podcast about the presenters. But I'm like, if you ever need someone to interview you, feel free to call me and we'll try to therapist because you have such a cool story. And it's been just so cool. Connecting with you. I really enjoyed this hour.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:00:51

Why wouldn't you want a therapist to me?

Emma Stern: 1:00:54

Oh, I mean, I don't want to have to be like interviewing. Like, tell me about your childhood. Tell me more. Because yeah, it's really Yeah. That's why That's why I love being a therapist. It's so inspiring to hear people's stories, what they do, right? Like, people always ask me, they're like, maybe this is a good, it's kind of in the therapy more than yoga point. I think this happens in yoga, too. We just don't always know. But people are always like, Oh, isn't it hard? Being a trauma therapist? Don't you burn out? I'm like, No, I'm inspired every frickin day by people who are so resilient and beautiful, and empathetic and can do these incredible things and be inspired by, you know, XYZ that may have happened. And yeah, it was really cool hearing your story, and just such a joy to talk to you about all these things.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:01:44

Well, thank you, Emma. I agree. It's, it's been a real pleasure. And yeah, I can't wait till next time, I'll keep an eye out for you. I'd love to join in on one of your trauma informed trainings. So I really want to do that. You said that we can provide some links for yoga lines, people that want to get some free training, so I'll include those as well in the show notes. And everybody go check out him on her website, which is in the link below. Super easy. Just click there. Go have a look. If you're listening, you can watch us on YouTube. If you're on YouTube. You can listen while you're driving. While you're walking while you're cooking. Thank you, Emma. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much, Chad. Thank you Take care you too. Have a great day. You too for bait. Native yoga Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time