Raji Thron - Stories Lived Through a Lifetime of Yoga

Special guest, Raji Thron, shares stories from his life lived in the pursuit of yoga. Raji is full of interesting tales of adventure from his birth in India that started him on the path of yoga.

During this conversation he speaks about:

• Living in an India as a youth.
• What was the state of yoga in Boulder in the 70''s and 80's?
• Making the decision to become a yogi.
• How he met Richard Freeman?
• Falling in love with ashtanga.
• Guru Barometer and respect for elders.
• Reframing the guru/ yogi dynamic.
• The rise and fall of John Friend.

Raji is the co-owner of  Yoga Synthesis studios and Program Director of YS Teacher Trainings, which since its inception in 1999 has had hundreds of graduates who have earned certifications. He is registered with Yoga Alliance as a E-RYT 500, lead trainer and continuing education provider and certified through International Association of Yoga Therapists (CIAYT) as a Yoga therapist.

Visit Raji at his website: https://www.yogasynthesis.com
Also on his personal website: https://www.rajithron.com
Follow him on Instagram @yogasynthesis : https://www.instagram.com/yogasynthesis/?hl=en

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Transcript

Todd McLaughlin: 0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga, and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin. I have the pleasure of bringing Raji Thron to the podcast today. And Raji is the founder and co director of Yoga Synthesis in Ramsey, New Jersey, which was founded in 1999. Please visit his website, yogasynthesis.com. And you can also check out his personal website Rajithron.com. And I had a really incredible discussion with Raji, I'm so excited for you to hear this. And he's got a very rich and vast history of personal practice experience with yoga and the world of yoga. And I've heard amazing things about Raji years ago from a student that came and visited and I happened upon his website. And I thought, I wonder if this is the Raji that my friend Tim was talking about? And it is! All right. I'll let him speak for himself here. Let's get started. I'm so excited to have Raji Thron here today with me. Raji, thank you so much for joining me. How are you doing today?

Raji Thron: 2:43

I'm great. Thanks.

Todd McLaughlin: 2:46

Just to get started here, you're in New Jersey. Is that correct?

Raji Thron: 2:50

Well, actually, yeah, we live just over the border in New York. Okay. Rockland County. So pretty much like Northern New Jersey, it feels the same.

Todd McLaughlin: 3:02

Yeah, I bet. I bet I hear you. And you have a yoga studio called Yoga Synthesis. Right?

Raji Thron: 3:10

Yeah in Ramsey, New Jersey.

Todd McLaughlin: 3:12

Wonderful. I feel like somewhere along the way, someone has come in to our studio and told me about you before. And I feel like I've heard about you over the years. The way that I found your website actually was I had purchased that an anatomy coloring book by I believe, a woman that may have practiced or taught for youat your studio.

Raji Thron: 3:38

Yes, she was one of our main teachers for a while.

Todd McLaughlin: 3:43

That's right. And in the process of looking to see like, where she was, I found your website, and then I saw your bio, and I was like, Wow, he looks, he looks really interesting. You have a really rich history of practice and teaching. So I'm excited to have this chance to ask you some questions about your yoga journey. On that know, can you give me a little bit of a historical perspective about how and when you started yoga practice?

Raji Thron: 4:12

Well, I guess I should go back to I was born in India, in Chandigarh, and my father was a mathematics professor. He was teaching at the university in Punjab, which is in the north northern India. And that, so we traveled there on a number of occasions. And the time I first learned yoga was when I turned 12. And we were living in San Diego at the time. Wow. And so then coming back to the United States, I kind of got into it and got really hooked. This is like mid 70s. Nice. That's the short answer.

Todd McLaughlin: 4:55

That's the short answer. That's good. That paints a really cool picture to a man Jinyu in India at the age of 12, like what an incredible age, like eyes are opening Exactly. And then you find what type of yoga class teacher yoga experience. What was that like?

Raji Thron: 5:13

Well, in India, I studied with an old man. It was actually his 80s. He was a friend or our family. And he, he passed away that year. And so it was what I would call a classical hatha yoga. And it was a very kind of intense time, as you might imagine, for me, coming from Boulder, Colorado, where we lived, where I grew up, there went back to there. That's where my dad, you know, was teaching was a professor got it? Yep. So. So basically, from what the teaching that I got from my teacher there when I was I turned 12. By the way, his name was Yogendra Paul, which is kind of wild.

Todd McLaughlin: 6:06

You'll you'll Jinda Paul Yogananda. Paul. So he

Raji Thron: 6:11

was he was a yogi named Joginder. Yeah. And, but he was an older man, and he taught me just basic, basic, hatha yoga. Let's just say, that's what I call a classical hatha yoga. No, I know not everyone uses that terminology. I like to use that. Because, you know, when you have kind of the the standard form that you might see in India, it's not bash Tonga. It's not Ashtanga vinyasa anyway. And it's not a yangarra. And it's just, you go to any town, any village, you're gonna find yoga that has a certain in the way it's kind of come to the modern world, modern yoga, modern India. It's what I would call a classical hatha yoga.

Todd McLaughlin: 7:01

Can you paint a picture what a practice session with him would look like then? I'm guessing classical positions, such as like a triangle, and

Raji Thron: 7:16

well, actually, so some some classical Sun Salute was, or some warm up before it. You know, like cat cow kind of thing? Yeah. classical sense. Fluid is different from the Ashtanga sencillo. You're probably familiar with that, like stepping back, going to cobra, upper dog. I mean, not coat, not upper dog, Cobra, and then downward dog. And then stepping into the lunge. You know that whole? Yep. And then classical poses. Really actually, in the beginning, it was way less standing poses. And more just sitting, you know, doing forward bends, twists, and openers, some back bends, and inversions, was covering a framework of these basic poses. But I mean, at the time, I was really young. So

Todd McLaughlin: 8:12

did he try to impart any information regarding theory or philosophy in with those appointed says, interestingly,

Raji Thron: 8:25

after he passed, I was still living in India for a little while before we moved back to the United States. And so, I mean, he he was less philosophically oriented. He was definitely oriented in a certain way, like said, telling you about Mahatma Gandhi, and like Indian saints, and that sort of thing. Yeah. The I met a younger man, whose name was surrender is actually a member of your movement in Punjab in India. Those are names of a lot of sick. Yes, a six. Right. And so, this guy was definitely a major influence on me philosophically, let's say, when he was actually a cricket player at the university was really into, you know, being in shape and he wasn't doing so much yoga per se, but he did all kinds of exercise and we'd sit and he would talk to me about basically reality existence. And you know, how and you know, being 12 years old, is definitely it was a shaking up, transformational time for me, because there I was having come from, you know, being in this very, kind of like, what would you call it upper middle class kind of situation and maybe middle class, whatever you call it, professorial? Yes, University, University Abraham, you know, yeah. And going living in India, and the first time I ever really saw poverty, and, you know, living at a standard of living that was much lower than I was used to sleeping on cots with, with a concrete floor. Yeah. And just the whole, the whole thing of seeing a, you know, I could look over the wall from where we lived. And, you know, there were shards of glass on the top of the wall, right. And on the other side was a slum. I could see it from our balcony, and I'd see these people like, basically living right there. So for me, there was this whole interesting Awakening on so many different levels, you know, to really the blessings of, you know, and, you know, knowing that life can be hard. Yeah. You know, and it's like, how do we learn to relate, personally and collectively, to this, this existence, this human existence? So there's a lot of conversation I was having with surrender. At the time. Joy. What, why is this happening? Why? Yeah, why are people living like this? You know, yeah. So

Todd McLaughlin: 11:22

did he have an answer for you? Did he ever? Did you have any insight? Yeah.

Raji Thron: 11:29

It was really into he personally had gone off to travel around India. And he was like, he was in his 20s. And he said, he left home, he traveled around India. And that's why he was so kind of philosophically inclined. Yeah. And he is like, yeah, you know, you get out there and you see what's going on. And it makes you realize certain things like being a wandering Saudi, you know, yes, you go. I think this is, this is part of what yoga, you know, in a way, the essence pointing to the essence of it is let go of all these outer trappings. Yeah, this holding on to sit really almost anything at a certain point, you know, yeah. But, I mean, we do love our creature comforts. So wish. Yeah, it's still, it's definitely you know, there's a certain pointing towards, you know, austerity are asceticism. And, for me at the time, I was like, Well, I don't really What are you? What are you talking about? So then, you know, actually, as I got further along, I realized, you know, what, what the implication was, and even now, I'm still still trying to, you know, integrate, that it's in? I don't know, I'm not sure if I'm giving you the nutshell of it very clearly. But it's, it's, it's really a lot of different aspects.

Todd McLaughlin: 12:57

You are, yeah, no, I think you're doing a great job. I can see what you mean, I, I'm trying to imagine myself being 12. Or my daughter right now is nine, like, imagining taking her and how her perspective would shift and change being raised in America and having an India experience. Where your parents, it's cool, they gave you an Indian name, when you were born, where your parents nudging you along in the direction of Raji go and study with this yoga man, you know, what were they? Were they, you know, thinking along those lines, or what, what was that like?

Raji Thron: 13:37

So, my, my parents were Quakers.

Todd McLaughlin: 13:42

Interesting.

Raji Thron: 13:44

Anyway, there's a lot of, there's like, so many different storylines of, you know, background, but yeah, but basically. So, they could say, they didn't go to India because they were following a guru or, or that, you know, into a Hindu thing like some, they're like, the generation before the 60s. Got it, you know, before the hippies. Yeah, I'm actually more in the, like, the, the latter side of the hippie generation. You know, you know what I mean? Like, I was, I was young, a young whippersnapper when all the hippies were walking around him. So I'd look at them and go, Whoa, what was going on here? It was all along here. And yeah, but and that and so being growing up in Boulder was definitely a scene back in the 60s and 70s. But, so going back to the whole thing about my parents going to India was really my dad had a sabbatical to teach at the university. And but he was really into Indian culture and art and, and that sort of thing. And vary in being a mathematician. So he's, he's kind of this subtle. I mean, he's more of philosophically oriented and more, probably, you know, from a yoga point of view we call them and Gianna yogi, right. He's just, he just had a very interesting way of looking at trying to be as objective and truthful and honest about, you know, the world and reality as possible, you know, like, kind of like a scientist, but in a more abstract way of, you know, thinking about things. I only realized this later in my life that, you know, can't appreciate my dad. He's passed away now. Yeah. So the, but the connection of them to yoga is actually it's very tenuous, let's say, they didn't say Go study with this guy. Or, you know, and even even as I got older, coming back to the United States, I mean, sometimes I joke about my mom being a yoga mom. She would, I was in my teens, and she would drive me to the yoga class.

Todd McLaughlin: 16:05

Oh, yeah. That's cool. It's

Raji Thron: 16:08

kind of different from some people, you know, like the soccer mom, for instance. Right. At that time, there were not many yoga classes going on.

Todd McLaughlin: 16:18

What was going on in Boulder? And do you mind me asking Raji, what year you were born?

Raji Thron: 16:25

What year? Yeah. That means I get to reveal my age. Right?

Todd McLaughlin: 16:29

You don't have to if you don't want to, I totally understand. I'm just so curious. Just,

Raji Thron: 16:32

I just turned 60, which means I was born in I was what? Last December. So yeah, what I said, just a couple of months ago, I turned 60. So 1962.

Todd McLaughlin: 16:43

Nice. Got it. Got it. So then that means when you were in Boulder at age 12, coming back from India, so we're talking 1974? Somewhere around there? Six, yeah. Wow. I mean, I've heard so many amazing things about boulder. And I've never been and I guess with the with the Naropa University being there, and all the influence of the Tibetan culture, and that's when it was starting, is that when is it showing up?

Raji Thron: 17:13

And various various gurus have come and gone through Boulder, but sugar Trump, he got things like 73. Yeah, is when. And he established his meditation center, and then neuro, but later on, and all of that. And so here I was, again, like I said, in my teens, imagine walking down the street, going to school or coming home from school, and seeing a limousine pull up and roll of the rolling out the red carpet for the guru. What the heck is this? You

Todd McLaughlin: 17:46

know, what's going on here.

Raji Thron: 17:50

And we had the Hari Krishna has come down, we had the city yoga, whatever, it was definitely a really interesting time to be there. Because, yeah, I mean, like I said, the, this awakening of in American culture. And when the young could say, I was too young, I was younger than the people who were having their awakenings. Right, right. I saw it happening and kind of went, Oh, this is interesting. So I went to check out some of the Buddhists centers and but actually, at the time, there wasn't, there weren't yoga studios. Got it. The only place they could find it was a yoga studio, per se was a kundalini yoga, the Yogi Bhajan style. It was a cooperative house, where all the Yogi Bhajan devotees lived together. And they had yoga classes there, like four or five times a week. So my dad, so that's where my mom would drive me

Todd McLaughlin: 18:52

interesting to a Yogi Bhajan inspired Kundalini class.

Raji Thron: 18:56

So I went from classical hatha yoga to Kundalini yoga. And then I just kept exploring, you know, different styles because, well, Kundalini yoga. Are you familiar with it?

Todd McLaughlin: 19:08

I am. But I want to hear what you have to say from your perspective.

Raji Thron: 19:14

We don't like you said earlier before we started this, we want to get caught up in any drama here. Right. So

Todd McLaughlin: 19:20

you know, it's funny, because I just recently today, somebody actually said, wow, when the Yogi Bhajan scandal came to fruition, and I, I'd heard it, but just today I had somebody run that past me. So I understand. Yeah, we don't have to say anything negative about anybody. But it is interesting. I would like to hear what you have to say about your view on that culture prior to that whole fallout of this, I guess, a sex scandal with Mr. Miyagi. Yeah.

Raji Thron: 19:50

Let me just preface it by saying I've come to a place where I really am outside of the box of any of these traditions. Pretty much. And you'll see when I answer this question, basically, I have an intuitive kind of like meter or cult, authoritarian trickiness. And I can't say I mean, maybe it's just how I grew up, you know, and it's like, like I said, my parents being Quakers. I don't know, if you realize, of all the religious traditions, spiritual traditions, you could just, I like to phrase this as a question sometimes for if I'm talking to somebody, say, and you name one that's non hierarchical. No, man, right. Yeah, the Quaker, the Society of Friends, as they call it, is as non hierarchical of religious spiritual tradition, as you might be able to find interesting. So I didn't know that. So. So having grown up in that, it's really so I think that's part of what happened is that I came to the yoga schools and traditions, you know, these spiritual yoga traditions from that point of view are going, well. Why should this anybody be an authority over me in sense of any spiritual connection? You know, and so, and even though someone may be very enlightened, more enlightened than you don't mean this, let's get into an interesting question, right? Relative enlightenment, yeah, who's more enlightened, you know, but, but, so, stepping into Kundalini Yoga, was like that. And like, wow, these people were really getting into this, you know, they're wearing all the, you know, and I just thought, these are these American people. And I didn't realize I just came from India, came back from India. And so having seen India and the Indian culture and the way that Hindus live, you know, and again, from an outsider point of view, but as an American going there, going, Wow, this is really wild, you know, and then seeing events, seeing Americans wanting to play out being, you know, more Indian, was what, what I looked at another. And so it's actually it was an interesting reflection, a time of reflection for me, yeah, where I went, you know, and I'll just do a little fast forward. Since I was born in India, when I turned 21, I had a choice to become an Indian citizen, which is weird to think about, too, because so it's like, do I take on the garb of joy become Indian, you know, when I, when I grew up, really, as an American, you know, I'm a US citizen, but then I had a choice and I couldn't become dual. You can't become a dual citizen of India, you have to choose right? Choice, I made the choice to stay. So this is kind of emblematic, I guess you could say, like, I chose. And even when it came to yoga, I to say I've seen Yoga people get really into kind of trying on the garb of being very Hindu. And that just never really, I mean, I should qualify and say, I think there are some amazing teachings that come out of Indian tradition. Yes, and whether you want to call it Hindu, or just Indian or Vedic, or, you know, the, so I'm not negating that, I'm just acknowledging for myself that I am actually an outsider from from that, you know, from not. So

Todd McLaughlin: 23:47

that's cool. I appreciate you laying all that out, though. I can feel that you have the deep respect for all like you said, all these different traditions and elements that are coming out of the yoga tradition, but at the same time having the really unique perspective that you had of being born there braised American being at the age to where, I guess maybe if you were coming back from India, or maybe your first yoga experience in India's when you were 21. And maybe you're having this sort of like seeking kind of perspective, maybe you would have been more like I really want to be the India guy. That is possible. But it's cool to hear from that angle of like, well, I seen it I saw it firsthand, up close and personal from the mind of like a 12 year old experience. And so you come back to the states you see people trying to all be want to be like something different than what we are because it just seems like it's gotten any better. It's gotten to be better. So

Raji Thron: 24:44

it's so it's interesting, because in a way, I decided not to do it on the external level. Because because, you know, but incorporate yoga into my life. More as a practice and an internal Oh, yeah, no. Yeah. So

Todd McLaughlin: 25:03

was that kind of interesting? Is that a hard decision to make when you were 21? Was that? Like, was that did that take you six months to decide? Or was it like, Okay, I got this choice to make I know exactly what I'm going to do. Like, was that a hard one to make?

Raji Thron: 25:18

I think it was a natural kind of, yeah. Feeling. Being being here in this culture, and not wanting to feel alienated. And not wanting to I mean, I guess maybe it's a level of conformity. You know? You know, it's funny, because even to the point where people almost automatically think I'm Indian sometimes. And, but, and having been born in India, we have an Indian name. It's, it's almost like, Okay, you're you're an Indian, like some of my best friends. Yeah. I thought you were Indian.

Todd McLaughlin: 26:04

What do you mean? What do you mean, you're from Quaker America? Like, what?

Raji Thron: 26:09

So basically, but then, you know, I mean, I guess it's kind of becomes this my secret? Yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 26:16

That's cool. Dig it? Yeah, go

Raji Thron: 26:20

do my yoga practice. In the morning. I'm doing you know, my breathing practices, you know, doing, you know, experimenting with cold showers. Because, you know, I mean, this is all becoming very popular these days. But like in kundalini yoga, they were really into waking up early and doing these breathing practices and cold showers, that sort of thing. Now, vim Hof is making it, you know,

Todd McLaughlin: 26:42

yeah, trendy, and much more popular. Yes.

Raji Thron: 26:46

So, so basically, I realized at a certain point that I can be quiet I am, whatever that means, you know, my true being, doesn't have to be like, it doesn't have to engage in any of any particular cultural typing, if I don't want to, you know, yeah. But also, I mean, the thing is, here we are in America, right. So to, to be more like a flamboyant yogi, so to speak, was an option. And I did kind of go a little bit in that direction. But then it was kind of like, you know, I want to fit in. And let's see this part of it. And like you said, that being younger, and going through this, because here I am in, you know, Junior High in high school. And, and I practice, I've started to practice a yoga more and more as I'm doing it, then, even to the point where I was doing pretty intense practices during high school for on my own. Right, wow. I mean, we're going to take different classes, but I was already a self practitioner,

Todd McLaughlin: 27:57

like self inspired, like, here, I'm gonna get up before my mom and dad are gonna make me get up. And I'm gonna do yoga practices, without any like, specific following of a specific teaching, like for example, like, say, I'm going to do primary series or

Raji Thron: 28:13

that came later. So that year, so in my 20s, is when I was like Richard Freeman. Wow. So we can jump, we can jump ahead if you want us to basically. Yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 28:22

I mean, I'm fascinated one way or the other. But I Yeah,

Raji Thron: 28:25

classical. I was really doing a kind of blend of like classical hatha yoga and Kundalini yoga. And and that's really, what is interesting is it started so blended so that I could, I just never stopped lending at a certain point, even though I started getting into Ashtanga. So if you if you just like, fast forward post high school, so I was already practicing a lot in high school, and I went to college, and I was practicing. And I'm like doing yoga on the campus. In my school people going, Oh, my God, are you? What are you doing there is I'm doing yoga and that. And so they said, Can you teach me so I started teaching at the physical education department in the school. Which I've never been no, don't tell anyone that's taking the teacher training or anything. I just went okay, I'll start teaching. Sure. And so, but then I got went back to Colorado, from, you know, between semesters because could say, I guess, or maybe it was the summer. One of the summers between I think it was my first semester, my first year in college, go back to Boulder. And that's when I see this workshop with the nyang or teacher named Richard Freeman.

Todd McLaughlin: 29:46

So he don't know I didn't know that he was he originally was teaching iyengar yoga.

Raji Thron: 29:51

Yeah, so he was teaching these really, like deep, intense, anger based and then he would pull out his harmonium at the end. We'll do all this like Goddess chanting. Like, but was it was a pretty tripped out scene. But, but to have Richard teaching my anger is actually also really different than your typical anger teacher. Because I don't know if you're familiar with Richard, but he really has this, like amazing out there. He's a he's a true yogi, you know, he's

Todd McLaughlin: 30:25

amazing. I had a chance to practice with him. He's so interesting.

Raji Thron: 30:30

Yeah, yeah. Beautiful practice. Yes. Oh, man. Yeah. So. So I was just amazed going there. I was just floating, let's say we have forgotten on several of his workshops. It's like, Wow, I love yoga. And he's such a great teacher. So then I went back to school, and then came back and looked for him again. Like, where's this guy Richard Freeman. And so people that I knew said, Well, he's with his new guru, Pataki, Joyce, studying in India. So he went, and he studied with it with coaches for like six months straight. And, and then he you know, the classic story about Richard, which is, I mean, I hope, you know, he doesn't feel offended by me. And there's no, I mean, this is like, one of those. It's complimentary, which basically, the first day he got there, he learned first to the second day, he learned second series, and the third day, he did 30. So

Todd McLaughlin: 31:33

is that? Is that a true story? Do

Raji Thron: 31:35

you think? That's the story I heard in three days first

Todd McLaughlin: 31:39

through third and three days?

Raji Thron: 31:42

Uh huh. So it tells you something about does what batavi Joyce was doing at the time because he had less students and he wasn't nearly as he wasn't holding back. And it tells you something about Richard So Richard could just do everything.

Todd McLaughlin: 31:54

He could actually keep up. Yeah. You're just

Raji Thron: 31:57

like oh truthers. Okay. Do this. Okay.

Todd McLaughlin: 32:01

That is amazing. That is a good swing. I didn't hear I've haven't heard that one yet. All right.

Raji Thron: 32:07

So that was my Richard comes back from India. And I started studying with him. And that's when did you

Todd McLaughlin: 32:15

remember you? Did you? Do you remember you from your ION guard classes with him?

Raji Thron: 32:21

I know, it's an interesting I think he might have, but I'll tell you my first experience walking into the Ashtanga studio, okay, which is yoga workshop. And he had just recently opened it like when I got back from being in school. And so I go in, and he had he's doing Mysore. Right. And so he says, Oh, just follow in. So I don't know if you any ruiner last name is right now, but Annie is pretty well known Ashtanga teacher and the pace. Yeah. Yeah. So she was Annie. She had a different last name. That time. Got it. So I walk in and she's doing second series. And I had never done a stalker before. He said, well just follow her. I'm like, okay, he's, oh, my God. And I had never done jumping Sun salutes like that before.

Todd McLaughlin: 33:18

Oh, yeah. Then on second, why not? Maybe there's brilliance behind that. Maybe?

Raji Thron: 33:24

It just it was like, oh my god, this is what yoga can be like. Wow. So yes. So I, I really, I basically fell in love with Ashtanga and because it's, it's like it had everything that I had been looking for, along with having Richard as a teacher, because, because he's always weaving in this deeper aspect, you know, the, what he would refer to as the inner form, right. And so, it's like you're going you're not just doing athletic, intense, deep hatha yoga poses, which is one of the things I really loved about Ashtanga. But you're also just diving in, connecting in the whole time, and especially with his guidance, you just do. That's what he wants you to do. Yeah. So yeah, Stanga was a real major, I guess you could say a turning point because I was already a pretty disciplined practitioner, but then it gave me this, as you know, right. That this feeling of oh, I can just do this vinyasa practice, you know, and will that then have it helped me to progress? Because, you know, this is one of the questions I asked. You know, it's like which style if you were to pick a style that has been a really help you progress physically, like, become a real adept, or an adjunct however you want Sara, you know, physically speaking, you go, Well, you know, Kundalini is not doing it. They're gonna give you a lot of energy work, right. But then in yoga, restorative yoga is anger. Well, yeah, but the question is, how do you progress? You know, I think or doesn't give, like, distinct practice methodology the way that I mean, and that's why they call it a practice method. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Start getting Yassa, the practice method. And that's where I really felt that the moment I stepped in that I was like, wow, this is truly a strong practice. That can take me somewhere. And so that's why I stuck with it for four years. I still still come back to it. I kind of gone a little bit way, you know, out of the fold. That's a whole other discussion, I guess. But

Todd McLaughlin: 35:58

oh, my gosh, Raji. Yeah, this is amazing. I have so many questions for you. Um, the first one. When was your them first practice session with batavi? Joyce, was it with Richard in Colorado? Or was it?

Raji Thron: 36:11

Yes, in India. So Richard had photographer always come to Colorado to teach and he was 1989. So he stabbed me twice. I've done a couple of different, you know, tours. But there there weren't that many before that. This was like one of the one of the first. Yeah, because what Tommy Joyce would do he go. I'm trying to remember. I don't think he went to New York in the beginning,

Todd McLaughlin: 36:36

just Encinitas. Maybe. And

Raji Thron: 36:38

yeah, so it was Colorado. Because Richard, and then yeah, Tim, because of Tim Miller, in Encinitas. And then in Hawaii. That's right. Trying to think of the Hawaii was it on Nancy? Nancy yoga? Yeah. Yeah. So those were the, I think, the three main stops that he did in the beginning. And so he was on doing that. And he came to Colorado, and that's when I went home. I gotta I gotta go to Mysore. How can I not? Yeah. So

Todd McLaughlin: 37:11

you already have in your experience. So it's not like it's this crazy new cultural thing that you won't know how to navigate like, you have a little, you got some chops there. You've had a great teacher here in Colorado, you're practicing with Richard Freeman. So you're getting like, maybe even a better experience just practicing there than anywhere else. Um, so then I'm curious. What was your thoughts, feelings and vibe on your first Mysore session?

Raji Thron: 37:39

In India In India? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So. So well, I'll just tell you what. So I traveled through Europe, on the way to India. And I was trying to, like stay in shape. So I'm like, doing my routine in the morning and night before I go to sleep, because I actually traveled, like, almost a month, on my way. And so then I get there. So I had been in Germany, and I thought, Oh, I gotta bring something along. So I brought because, you know, when you come to the yoga Shala, you know, I don't know if people do this anymore. But I felt like we had sent a letter to Punjabi choice, saying, Hi, you're studying with Richard. And I'd love to come and study with you. And I never heard anything back. I said, Well, just, you know, you just go it's going to be fine. And so I go, and I had little, like, interesting, like, Mayan, like silver, Mayan Calendar, pendants that I got, I don't know why I even thought this would be cool. But, and then I got some German chocolates. And I bring them in and I go to the knock on the door, as I say, and he he can't Well, actually, I think it was his wife. ology, answered the door, and I say hi, I'm here to study with Gucci Mane. And then she goes, Oh, you know, I don't know what she would call him. But so he comes to the door. Now he's like, wearing his just, you know, the, the typical, like, he's wearing his douching like a rap and, and whatever shirt. Yeah. So basically, he comes he goes, like, what do you want to kind of? Grigio? I'm here to study with you a student of Richard. Richard. And he goes, Oh, Richard. Oh, yeah. And I said, Here are these are for you. And he's like, Oh, thank you, Don, you know, is his English was not great. Yeah. So. So can I can I practice and he goes, Oh, yes, practice. And so come come at 430 tomorrow. Yeah,

it's like 4: 39:54

30am or something. I actually forgot. I think it was maybe little later than that, because the the Indian students, this is what this is when he had the little studio in the back of his house. So it

Todd McLaughlin: 40:11

was it Lakshmi Poron or is actually

Raji Thron: 40:13

formed. Yeah. 1990. And so, yeah, it's, it's hard to even dredge up all the memories right now. But basically, I lived in a what firstly is lived in a hotel, and then it moved into a house that was being rented by a bunch of Ashtanga students. Yeah. And so basically a Get up, caught up in my first day. Here, you were asking that question. So basically, that's kind of I guess, I would say, It was exhilarating, exciting, intimidating. And all that all at once. Yeah, you know, yeah. Come, I show up at the door, you know, and looking in, and I couldn't quite get into into the studio yet, because it was full with people. So then you wait outside the door. And, and then someone moves to the finishing room, which was upstairs. And so then, as you get your spot, and so basically, you just get to do so. My thing with Tommy Joyce at that time was I said, Guruji. I've haven't practiced in a while. And so and I was doing first series with Richard Freeman. But if it's okay with you, maybe I'll just do half first series. And you know, just get myself going. He's like, Oh, no problem, you know. And so that's, you know, usually that means going up to Navassa mode, right? Yeah. And then, so basically, it went. And, and he also pretty much stayed hands off. For several weeks. I was there from August to the left in February. I was there for a while. And so I basically went through getting all the first series and all the second series at the time that I was there. So yeah, it was it was just that room. Yeah, you know, you just, you hear him shouting out every now and then he's working the room. It's just sweating. You hear booj breath, just like, you know. And it was intense. It was great. Yeah. Yeah, it was perfect. The perfect thing for what I you know, for where I was, I would say that I went from being fairly adept to being much more of a debt thing for months, you know, just like, that's amazing things like, where he would come up and do adjustments. And I know, he's gotten a bad rap sometimes for some of the adjustments. And I'll just say, you know, right here, whoever gets to watch this, doing adjustments appropriately and carefully is important. And, but when it's when the you're given a great adjustment at the right time, and you know, the right progression in your practice, well that it can be a major accelerator for your, you know, your practice, just, and if it's done consistently, that's what's so beautiful in my store, room, you know, with batavi choice, or if you're with another stronger teacher, you know, where if you're giving consistent adjustments in a good way, you can really see a difference. Amazing, isn't it? You feel it feels so amazing. So that's what I definitely remember are getting these deep adjustments. You know, that classic adjustment where your booty to Huster parish, dossena? That's where you're, you're balancing big toe, go forward, and then you're supposed to pull forward and close at the end. Yeah, some people you know, there was like, reach around and just bring the bring their leg up. And Tommy Joyce would come up and give you this, like, full on. I don't know if in the in the last years probably didn't it never did that much anymore. But in the earlier years, he would come up and so there's the there's the kind of like, hold the leg and hold the body and bring them together with this. Yeah, kind of a gentleman but then there's the straight on you know, and put your leg on his shoulder. And basically you're doing a standing upright standing split and he was just go like a bear hug. You know, your leg is on and he just like for him and you're like, Oh my god. So, I mean there for for those who were able to hear Jungle, the intensity of certain adjustments was an amazing thing. And then other people actually get hurt at times. And that's not a good thing.

Todd McLaughlin: 45:08

Yeah. Yeah. It was just the nature of the game at that moment, right? I mean, it was what it was. And I hear ya, I hear you. That's amazing. Roger, I love hearing about your I love hearing your story. That's really cool. I like your perspective. I'm curious. Okay, so you've, you've had this realization, or you have a good say guru barometer, or, or Colt almoner. And so then the experience, I remember when I was in Mysore, I was like, I don't want to, I didn't feel comfortable touching batavi Joyce's feet. And just something about that really triggered me and it made me just from my own personal Western upbringing, something about that gesture, which I'm aware of in India is not much. It's still very respectful gesture, but maybe isn't terribly different from us shaking hands here in the West, like, it's a way of honoring and showing respect. And I've seen Indians like, like, say someone would see their grandmas so they go up and just bow down and touch grandma's feet as a way of saying, I have a lot of respect for you, Grandma,

Raji Thron: 46:17

it's an honoring of the elder honoring of a teacher and it's an honoring of, you know, so

Todd McLaughlin: 46:25

in from my from my work, yeah,

Raji Thron: 46:26

please. Yeah. normalized for that in India, is a gesture that's not like, like, you're not, you know, giving all your power away, so to speak. But And here, of course, you're like, what is? It seems really strange. So

Todd McLaughlin: 46:45

how would you? I got I gotta ask you real quick. How did you navigate then? Well, whether or not you want to tell me if you did touch batavi Joyce's feet or not, but I did. And do you feel that you were able to still maintain your autonomy and not fall into a cultish guru following situation within that process? Or do you feel you did? Maybe slide a little over off of your Quaker full philosophy, upbringing? And how to navigate back? Can you explain a little bit about Yeah,

Raji Thron: 47:24

yeah, let me let me just think. I think it's possible if you step into more of an Indian way of thinking, to be like, well, let me let me put it this way. I think of myself as having many gurus. I had many throughout my life, I have many that I hold in high regard that I respect, and even the some of them that have fallen from grace, so to speak. You know, or maybe have, you know, in our society and the stories that are told, there, they have their human frailties, right, I do too. And so not that I have any sexual scandals.

Todd McLaughlin: 48:08

But just to be clear, I actually do have a high level of honor, but I get it, I get

Raji Thron: 48:14

it, basically, when I see these gurus, this collective gurus that I have, and actually I think of it as going back even so, you know, they, they talk about power and power, you know, the, the lineage of gurus. Well, I really think this is a, this is really, I mean, for humanity in general, we have all these great wise souls and teachers that have, you know, passed knowledge and techniques and practices down. And, and in a way, they're just transmitters, right. And so yeah, they're, they're human humans, and they have their human frailties, and they lived in a particular culture where maybe they were very patriarchal or abusive, even. Right. And we know that in our past too. But that said, but then, the question is, can you filter out like the wise teachings and acknowledge that the Guru, the relevant enlightenment teachings, and maybe not necessarily I'm not bowing down to photography choice himself, you know, understand because, I mean, he's just a human or I think are even though I respect my anger immensely, and I know he also had his issues, you know, but or all these other gurus like these Buddhist speaking of, you know, growing up in Boulder and seeing the whole rolling out of the carpet for chew gum Trumper. Just going wow, this guy is really high on his. I just don't know. Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't really understand that. But I'm not going to bow down to him. But I will I acknowledge that he had some pretty amazing teachings that he was transmitting, you know, they're not and they, they go beyond him. That's the beauty of that's the beauty of yoga teachings. And so Ashtanga as a form goes beyond to have the choice to write. And all these dynamic Kundalini forms the intense, you know, movement and breathing, they go beyond Yogi Bhajan, they go back. So, so it's really, I like to think more in terms of a collective and a transmission of, you know, sets, it makes it easier for me to because I'm not going to bow down to really anyone. And not in that way. But to touch someone's feet to me doesn't mean that I'm giving away my power and my authority. And I'm not saying I'm going to do anything you're telling me?

Todd McLaughlin: 50:56

Yes. Yeah, that's well, so that's well said. Raji, when I finally got the gumption up to go ahead and do it. It was from personally, it was a really nice experience, because it was like, I felt like I was holding on to this, like, that struggle that comes with thinking that I shouldn't give up my power. And in some respects, actually, just surrendering is a really beautiful, amazing thing. And I, but I love the way you navigated explaining the reverence for the teachings through the individual, as opposed to the actual worship of the human element that the person apart so that that's, that's cool, man. Good.

Raji Thron: 51:41

Outsider. Yeah. has certain advantages. Yeah, good point. Yeah, no, because when it comes to India, and cultural things, and the guru dynamic, even so the yoga tradition, a lot of people will say, Who, the only way you can be enlightened, or have awakened your Kundalini or whatever, is by having the guru touch you or, you know, give you your, you know, put the grace. And that's something that I think so, along with so many of the interesting trappings of are there within the culture, Indian culture? That's one that I think it's important to reframe, or, you know, question when it comes to? And so for me, the reframing is, is maybe the best way of putting it because it's like, yeah, I want to acknowledge that these gurus are have, are helping me and I've taken on so much from from them, that have helped things that have helped me. And yet, it's not really so much about them at all. You know what I mean? So it's, so how do we reconcile, I guess, questions for me, I reconcile that by reframing. And going well, I can, I can go with this as long as it means this. It doesn't mean, you know, whatever you might think is like, you have to devote your life and all your belongings. And, you know, it's this is where we're at the whole guru trip gets really wild, you know, you know all the stories about like Rajneesh and whoever else.

Todd McLaughlin: 53:37

I bet yeah, yeah, it's a long list, right? Do you feel like in I don't know if this is just me. But I remember roundabout, I want to say like somewhere between 2020 and 2022. In with all of the elements that were going on in terms of our own popular culture here in America and the global element of a pandemic, it seemed like there was this like, another guru was coming out with the scandal, another group scandal situation another like, and then coming across from the meditation hall, from the Tibetan Buddhist world from the all these different, like it was like a reckoning or like a storm of reckoning. Did you get a feeling for that tour? Because you've been in Do you have a longer you have an incredible long term perspective, at least, I think, from what I'm hearing, I'm really digging this. You know, or have you have you just been something you've been watching consistently all along? Or, like there was a big storm all of a sudden, what is your take?

Raji Thron: 54:41

Yeah, I got a call from Richard. During during COVID. Factor The last time I spoke to him personally, talking about dynamics around what was going on in the Ashtanga world with Tommy Joyce. And you know that that that's kind of a more minor stuff. Warm, I guess maybe, compared to I mean that the Yogi Bhajan thing has really blown up and yeah, it's, it's I think the reckoning is good. I mean, you know, so it's just a matter of how we, because it just shows us where we're certain parameters of what of appropriateness? It, you know, are Yeah, it's like, now, you know, don't give up your power. Like, I mean, the Bitcoin thing is, it's it, I didn't let me just put it this way, I didn't really know, the depth or the you know how crazy some of these things were, you know? And so it's kind of like, oh, well, it's, it's actually good to know. And to, you know, be clear. So like, when I had this conversation with Richard, I went to our website, our studio website and just said, I just want to be clear, you know, we do not condone any, you know, it's like, and I think Richard did the same thing. He was like, Look, I may be an Ashtanga. Now, I'm not gonna speak for Richard. I'm sorry, Richard. I'm speaking for myself here. Just to say, like, you know, whatever happened with whatever teachers, I personally, in my studio do not condone any of these things in us, you know? Yes. That's, that's it just made it very clear. I think it's like, yeah, you know, that's what the reckoning is all about. And, like, people need to just wake up and say, you know, yeah, okay, you're maybe you're such a great yogi. And you're in your little, little denial world. Is because I think and there's a lot of denial that that happens, because everyone wants to have their safe. Well, I mean, there's, you know what I mean? Like, keep it like, in their fantasy is, oh, he's perfect.

Todd McLaughlin: 57:10

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but busting the bubble of the fantasy is, like, go to the dark night of the soul when that happens, right? I mean, can be dramatic, but ultimately, it's a very liberating experience. Yeah.

Raji Thron: 57:28

You're familiar with the whole Ansara

Todd McLaughlin: 57:31

oh, gosh, well, that's I'm so glad you're bringing that up. Because when I read your bio, I saw that you'd have this this history of practicing with the the old school stronger crew, and then John friend, and I thought, wow, he's, he's, he's seen all of it. He I know,

Raji Thron: 57:52

Rob, John friend as a as a friend, because no, sorry, it's fine. But in a way, because you came to Richard studio back in the day, and he was teaching I was, you know, couldn't yangarra alignment for strategies. And he was a friend of Richard's. And, and then he started developing the whole Ansara thing. And so I couldn't even really tell you all the details and what happened with him, you know, because I don't even really know. But all I know is that it kind of it just had this curve of Ansara. grew, grew, grew, grew, it, like had a pretty steep curve of getting really popular. I actually went to see him and study with him a couple of times when he was in New York. And this big scene, you know. And, as you mentioned, I go there, and I go, Whoa, this is interesting. This is turning into like, remember the guru made the meter when he was like, he went from being this really like, laid back casual while he was still pretty good, pretty laid back and casual, just, just suddenly he had this huge following. Yeah. So nothing. Yeah. I don't even really know how to evaluate it. And just yeah, what happened, but yeah, definitely. I mean, for me, it's, I was already an outsider coming in. And, you know, I was really the donkey at that. In those early days. Going to the Ansara world. Yeah. Okay, this is interesting. Wonder what he's doing here. Yeah. We'll just call my selfish donkey, I guess. Yeah. Just, you know, an easy way of speaking. Because I was definitely much more into, you know, as a hardcore, kind of stronger vinyasa practitioner for a while.

Todd McLaughlin: 59:51

I understand. I understand. You know, I remember I was I was living in San Diego, my wife and I had a Bikram yoga studio. Yo we trained under be calm. So yes, I can attest to there was some craziness going on there. And I was practicing with Tim Miller and Encinitas. And I remember hearing about John Fran and the rise of popularity that you're talking about. And I feel like in the Ashtanga community there was this little bit of like beef almost like the storyline I remember hearing was that John friend kind of took his own little version of ion garna Stanga took stole a little something from Richard, I don't know how true that is, like the the twisting principles and the spiraling ideas that maybe had like borrowed money, everything's borrowed these days. So I mean, to say like, we take something from somebody, I mean, realistically, Come on everyone here.

Raji Thron: 1:00:45

So excited. Yeah. I would like I'd say, I was there certain moments in Boulder, Colorado, when Richard, I heard Richard and John discussing these universal alignment principles, as you know, which was came the name that actually I think John French tried to copyright it or whatever. I think he did. But I mean, you can always just change the name of border around and then copyright. Yeah, alignment. Yeah. X or alignment B, and then it's your copyright. But basically what both of them had studied with anger, right. Both of them were pretty much in the same level of progression in I anger. I think John Prine was a junior level Hyang our teacher at the time when he kind of jumped off to develop on Asara Richard, I'm not sure if he ever what level he became an annoying, he was in I think, for about 10 years. And so, but he, you know, became the donkey that is, and so then, basically, John friend comes, and we're sitting over lunch, you know, like we John would teach a workshop. And then the teachers from the studio I was teaching there at the time, where we go and have lunch together, and all this discussion around, you know, like, reversal alignment, and so on. So, really, in a way, the discussions between Richard and John became the basis for a lot of what Ansara now, there is a slight difference in perspective that I noticed and have noticed over time is that with John friends way of talking about the principles is that they have a certain progression, you know, you guys like the five, you know, I've memorized them in case if you ever want to, but because I was really into you know, I'm, I'm a studious kind of guy, so I just kind of come Okay, I'll learn this. I'll just absorb it. Yeah. And so. And so. And then I'd like to see what different people are saying about different things and just go, Okay, well, what's the difference between what John friend is saying and what Richard says that Richard is much more like, you doesn't you don't you can't pin him down very well. You never really can. Right? So he's very smart that way. So you go, Richard, which one? Is it organic or muscular? You know, I mean, one thing that everyone can probably agree on is about setting the foundation of oppose. It's like set the foundation. Yes, yes. But you know, but then how are you going to set the foundation? How are you going to which, okay, which spiral comes first time?

Todd McLaughlin: 1:03:47

Sorry. Yeah.

Raji Thron: 1:03:50

God, which will come first inward spiral or outward spiral? Well, you know, I mean, ultimately, and, you know, it's just this. So this is what I like to say about it. Just to wrap this up, is to say, ultimately, it's about a balancing act that we're, we're we're in the midst of right, yeah. Shiva Shakti there, you know, are they always gonna be imperfect? You know, they're they're doing their dance. Yes, that's, that's a that's a Richard is.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:04:20

That's a Richard answer.

Raji Thron: 1:04:23

My early days with Richard, he always talks about the pubic bone and the tailbone and the dance, and they kind of meet in the bedroom. And it's Shiva and Shakti. So it's like, you're just always in the midst of that. That's how Mula Bandha. That's already talked about Mula Bandha. And I'd be like, Richard, what are you talking about? So, so to hear to hear Richard going into that very esoteric world, and maybe even philosophically, he's doing this? Yeah. And then, but then John takes it and he makes it into a thing. You know, it's like he goes, Let's take Shiva look like this. And Shakti looks like this and we're gonna make them, you know? Like is, is the inhale Shiva or is the exhale Shiva? It's like, rip. And you know, of course you dive into it and you go, Well, they're both they're in both. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because they're everything is intertwined. That's what Tantra is. Right. So. So you basically, I know, I'm getting a little carried away here. But so but if you want to make it into some marketable, easy box, to you know, yes. Yeah, do this first, then this, then this. And this is what we call the new paradigm of yoga. And you go, well, it's just not so easy. Yeah. So you can see why I'm really still very much a student of Richard, because I don't necessarily agree with this whole model of you. There's a kind of an absolute, yeah. Like this, this, this, this, this represents this, and this represents that. And, you know, it's like, okay, well, that could be useful. Yeah. Go ahead. Give me another question. Oh, no,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:06:14

this is great. Raji. And what I'm realizing is that I budgeted a an hour for us to chat. And, and I think we should have budgeted the five hour podcast on that. On that note, can we do a part two and beyond because I still have a lot of questions for you. And I really want to hear more about your ideas and thoughts about alignment in specific poses. I got a chance to go to your website. Everybody listening check out. Can you tell us the why now you have your personal website, your studio website? Again, Raji is

Raji Thron: 1:06:54

yoga synthesis.com. Cool.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:06:57

And then you have your personal one which is Raji. Raji, drone, drone, the

Raji Thron: 1:07:03

DJI thr O N calm, but really, it's, it's the youngest, since this one. That's the most actors because that's where all the classes are happening.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:07:12

So in Rajya have to ask you, I think I'm hoping I'm gonna make the connection here. Right. Did you ever have a student named Tim Foster? Yeah, that's how I know. Yeah, because Tim comes practice here. And he used to rave about you had said some really great things about you. Yeah. So he,

Raji Thron: 1:07:36

um, he lives in Montclair, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:07:40

And that's why first, when I first heard about he goes, I practice with this guy named Raji. He's amazing. He has this amazing history with yoga. And, and so as we were as you were talking, I'm like, it dawned on me that's that's where I initially had heard about you. Yeah, that's so cool, man. Well, I so will first thank you, please. Yeah, you can Yeah, keep let's keep going. I want to own a vinyasa yoga might keep it up. Keep it up. I want to see the cognitive put my glasses on so I can see the cover more properly. Nice. Can you lift it a little higher, so I can see what it says on the bottom? The you read it to me? The yoga,

Raji Thron: 1:08:25

yoga synthesis guide to dynamic sequencing with hundreds of photos and instructions.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:08:30

Nice Raji. Dude, I didn't know you had that book. That looks amazing. All right.

Raji Thron: 1:08:34

Also, I have this breathing book, which is called one breath. Nice.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:08:40

Cool, man. They're both on Amazon, of course. All right. I'm going to make a purchase as a way of saying thank you well as one simple gesture to say thank you for for joining me here and I hopefully you will be open to me sending you another invite, because I do have more questions. Raji, and I really enjoyed hearing your stories and I love the way that you're balanced in your outlook on this coming at it from an angle of like, let's be honest and real here. Yeah, man, this is refreshing. And I really enjoyed this. So thanks for reaching out. Yeah, man.

Raji Thron: 1:09:20

Thank you. It's all going well down there may visit sometime that would be in Florida when it's so cold up here.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:09:26

That would be incredible. I'd love to host you for a workshop and if you could come down like this time of year Jan or Feb once is when the weather is like glorious and and I'm really thankful to have the connection. I love hearing about somebody and finally here I get a chance to to meet you. So, this has been a this has been a real honor and a real treat. I will I will reach out to you and thank you.

Raji Thron: 1:09:54

Thank you

Todd McLaughlin: 1:09:57

Namaste Raji. A native yoga taught cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know. If there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time