Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn - Connecting the Dots - Yoga, Acupuncture and the Meridian Pathways

Listen to this one! Yes, this is Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn. I am so excited to bring Dr. Rose Erin onto the podcast because she has a unique perspective on the world of yoga, acupuncture and self care. I think you will find this conversation fascinating and informative.

Check out Dr. Rose Erin on her website: www.scienceofselfytt.com
Also on Instagram: @erin_bodyaware

Check out her book, Science of Self on Amazon here.

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Transcript

Todd McLaughlin: 0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us native yoga, and check us out at Nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. For those of you that are here for the first time. Welcome. I'm so happy to have you join in. For those of you that are longtime listeners, your support is so appreciated. I'm really delighted to bring to the podcast today, Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn. She is an experienced acupuncturist. She's a yoga teacher, she specializes in myofascial trigger point therapy, and the practice of science of meridians. She has over 20 years of practice in the field. And she's got an incredible Instagram page, I really highly recommend you guys go check it out. It's at@erin_bodyaware. And then please go look her up on her website, which is scienceofself.com. I recently bought her book The Science of Self, Yoga, Pathways, Organs and Emotions off of Amazon. I'll put a link in the description below for all these different sites. And it's really interesting. And I have to admit, I've been reading it and applying some of the ideas during my own yoga practice and the way that she's been able to bring the use of visualization of the meridians into while practicing the yoga poses and feeling the energy pathways in the body based on our experience. And then having a little bit of guidance from her to know what the tradition of it all is, has been really fascinating. So for me, this is a huge honor to bring Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn on let's go ahead and start. I'm so excited to have Dr. Rose Aaron Vaughn here today. And Dr. Rose Aaron, how are you doing today?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 2:49

I'm doing great. I'm sitting by my wood stove. up in upstate New York.

Todd McLaughlin: 2:54

Oh wow. It's it's obviously a little bit colder up there than here in Florida and my flip flops and the air conditioning. Oh, wow. Right?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 3:06

No, it's very cold here. Yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 3:08

Oh, man. I'm really excited to have this chance to speak with you because I'm, I have your book the science of self yoga pathways, Oregon's and emotions, and I'm enamored with it. I think what you've done with blending your acupuncture career with the yoga together and the visuals of the way that you use the meridian lines from the acupuncture and or Chinese medicine system in what the yoga poses has been so interesting. I really love your book. I think it's incredible.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 3:44

Well, thank you. You're welcome.

Todd McLaughlin: 3:46

And so so that all of our listeners are aware you're you're an experienced acupuncturist, you're a yoga teacher, you specialize in myofascial trigger point therapy, and practice science of meridians. And you've had an opportunity to learn from your 20 years of practice in the field. And I'm curious, was there a lightbulb moment for you, excuse me that for you that your study and career path would unfold to where you are now.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 4:20

There was a few but I think as far as combining the energy pathways, which we call meridians, in Chinese medicine, with yoga, those are two different systems. That happened for me, I think that was something that was sort of it sort of was a seed for a long time, you know, seed and sprout. Were roads and I think, I think when I was studying originally just trigger point manual therapy and yoga before I went to acupuncture school and learn the meridian system. Since there is there's some deeper connection that I needed to find with combining sort of the myofascial pathways that I was learning, with the asana, yoga asana, with an understanding, sort of the emotional connection to it. Like, why, why are these patterns in the body? And why does yoga asana work, to not only heal the body, but to release emotions? Anyone that practices us and and knows that it relationship? Yes. Because you start crying in class sometimes, and then you feel better. Yeah. So I really just, I had asked my teacher who is dharma major, my yoga teacher. He's a he's a master. I mean, he's, he's 83. Now, and, and I was pretty close to him. And I said, I want to learn the energy pathway. And he's a funny, he's a funny guy. I mean, he, he will say things like, really short, you know, and then later, you'll figure out what it meant. But he just said, what you need to, you need to get a book. He was like, I don't he's like, I don't know that stuff. But you should get a book he said you should get. He told me to get the Shivananda book that has like the noddy's. And I was like, Oh, well, I guess, you know, I guess that was a stupid question. But I think he, you know, like, mysteriously, he started, put me on the path to go to acupuncture school and learn, learn those pathways. Nice. And in every time I see him, he's always like, are you still doing the needles? You know, acupuncture. And he asked me while I was in school, and yeah, he asked me just last week, are you still doing? And anyway, I think, as I studied the meridian system, which is really overwhelming, in the beginning, yes, it's a massive amount of very detailed information about the energy pathways in the body. And so it was overwhelming. So I made up these meditations, which I could, which I could do and during the oftener like body scans,

Todd McLaughlin: 7:30

where you just follow them Rhydian, like we use, like your mat. Wah. I don't want to say it. I guess I was gonna say the word imagination, but you use your your power of visualization to body scan and follow the meridian around while you're in the yoga pose.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 7:48

Exactly. That's crazy imagination. Yeah. Because whether, I mean, my acupuncture teacher is also a master. And he's like, it doesn't matter if these pathways are real or not. You know what I mean? Like, people argue over these things. Like, are they useful? And so they are useful. And anyway, yes, it's totally imagination, visualization. And as I was doing the asana that I'd been doing for years anyway, I was like, wow, I can feel these pathways. Wow. They're on some level. They're, they're really real. Religious unfolded, it opened a whole new world

Todd McLaughlin: 8:29

did that. Did that light bulb go off more when you started to apply what you're learning from the Chinese meridian system more so than what you had learned and applied from the myofascial release pressure point work?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 8:47

Well, the thing about the myofascial release, which is brilliant, and that's that I had studied the true Belson and tech and in you know, I went to massage school first.

Todd McLaughlin: 9:06

I was Yeah, yeah, that's a very dense text isn't it? Like I have those books I like to say I studied that's a very big undertaking just for for those that are listening that aren't aren't so familiar with those texts. So that's pretty amazing that you, you you combed those volumes and went deep and study

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 9:28

you have to come through it and I have the I still have the original books that I had bought and they're you know, heavily underlined. I was just like, wow, what is this? crazy like that? Any I tell everyone to buy those and just spend the rest of their life reading them.

Todd McLaughlin: 9:48

They're absolutely incredible in relation to trigger point and referral points, don't you think like the just this

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 9:55

girl and and also like, things that it could To mimic, or that could mimic those pain patterns. Like, you know, you may think you're having a heart attack, but you actually have a trigger point in your rhomboids or something like that, or your pec major. Yes. And so that was just fascinating to me, but it has left out one component, mostly which, which was emotions, like stress and anxiety and, you know, or anger, like, how did those things specifically? What patterns do they specifically create? And that is what the Chinese system is masterful for. Because they understand the connection of those myofascial pathways to organs to the specific organs, internal organs, and also like something which, when you first hear it, you're like, what the liver is a has anger is, you know, is associated with anger, like, really like how I don't, you know, people don't buy it right away, but, but I explain it to people like, you know, the heart is related to love. Right? Yeah. Everyone just sort of intuitively knows that. Because they feel it. Yeah. And

Todd McLaughlin: 11:24

that's one that we accept that one, but the thought of anger and my liver, like, it's a bit of a lead at first.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 11:33

It is, you know, and but then each of the, but then if you start to study it and think about it, then you notice, like, when you get really angry, or there's something that's really irritating you that's not usually there, you notice certain patterns in your body, like tension around the right side of the ribcage radiating down the right side, or down the IP van or something or up into your jaw. And that's, that's the liver and gallbladder, the gallbladder pathway, but it's related to the liver. And then it changes your life, you can't go back once you see a

Todd McLaughlin: 12:14

good point, I have a lot of questions based on what you just said. But I also want to bring up that you hold a bachelor's in Biology from Wake Forest University and that you graduated top of your class. Is that true?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 12:31

That is true. No, not the top I was like magna cum laude are

Todd McLaughlin: 12:37

pretty, pretty close to it. Right? And, and you're a doctor of acupuncture from Pacific College of Health Sciences. Right? Um, so I'm, I'm curious, how have you taken your study in biology and use that to help you with your acupuncture study and or vice versa?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 13:06

Well, I mean, for me biology is it was like, just a passion. It's, like an art form. I mean, it's, it's an appreciation of what is there which is exactly the same as studying the meridians. Yeah, it's, it's a little different because of the tools that you use to study it. But it's, it's an it's a fascination and then all with, with like, how, like what are cell because I was studying cell biology. And you can't even see a cell without a microscope. So I was studying microscopes, too. But it's just, it's just a miracle. When you realize and I study anatomy, also, you know, physical anatomy in depth, and the more you study all of those subjects, it's just blows your mind. So I'm glad I have a background in science because I think it helps me analyze things more thoroughly, I guess I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You know, logically, just think about things.

Todd McLaughlin: 14:23

That makes sense. I, I have had a chance to study with Dharma Mitra. He was teaching down here in Fort Lauderdale at a Yoga Journal conference. And he did say and do so many different things that I was just like, This guy is amazing. You know, like he, he's really an interesting character. And I remember at one point he was quoting the Bhagavad Gita. And but at the time, maybe I didn't know that it was the Bhagavad Gita. So he had said a few things around On the realm of I am God, and I am a manifestation of God, I am God. And at the time, it really blew me away because I, I guess maybe I didn't realize he could have been quoting the Bhagavad Gita, maybe he wasn't. And at that point, I was in this realm of thinking, is that an ego thing to say I am God. And then after I got more steeped in India philosophy, and started to understand the concept of, of appreciating that everything is God. So if I recognize that I am, then there's that element. And so I'm, obviously that comes from a lineage of definitely believing in God. And so I'm curious that where if you you have had a deep background in the science world, which often doesn't go down that path? Where or how do you balance the opposing forces? Or do you see them as opposing forces? Do you feel like science and belief in God is is really connected? What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 16:13

Oh, that's a really good question. And I, first of all, I think he is closing about it to

Todd McLaughlin: 16:24

say that it was afterward that I was like, Oh, he's reading from that he was quoting Bible. Krishna is saying, I am God. And but at the moment, I was like, Whoa, Mitra is really going out there right now, like, so. So thank you for bringing up shedding a little light on that.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 16:41

But I think, you know, I personally, I was always there more more than science, I was in regard that just figuring it out. Not like I was, I was deep into one specific religion, although I was was an am Christian since I was born, I guess, whenever that starts, and I was raised that way anyway. But I wanted to explore everything. So I read all the different ones that I used to annoy my parents, you know, about like, what, why is it? We're talking about this? Like, what, what are we doing here? Why are we here? And there'll be like, nobody can hear stop talking. So but then, when I studied science, it really, it really never was a conflict for me, because, and I had some amazing teachers. I went to Wake Forest, which is actually a Baptist School. It was originally I think it's kind of mellowed out now, but you know, they, they, my teachers, I can think of two now who really inspired me. And they one of them was a biochemistry teacher. And she was like, the more you study biochemistry, the more you believe in God, because there's no way that this is random. It's impossible. I mean, I studied evolution, I studied genetics, we, you know, we had to sort of study all of that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And we studied immunology. immunology is if you if you study one, science subject in depth enough, it will lead you to that. Whether it's physics or biology or chemistry, because you will realize that we cannot comprehend how this got here. Yeah, yeah, we can't even really understand how it works. We're just beginning to understand how DNA in the immune system works. I mean, that should be obvious. As, as advanced we can we have a MacBook Pro, and we can talk to each other from very far away, but we don't know how the immune system really works. Or we would be able to cure all diseases. Because there's a deep there's another component, and that's the spirit. And it's the will to live in where, you know, where does that come from? Great question. The intelligence of the immune system is mind blowing on its own, not with help from the outside. And, I mean, that was the one topic that really blew my mind. immunity, the immune system because I don't want to bore your audience with the details, but the way that the body can edit your DNA and all this stuff, it seems right I get to be, you know, there's an intelligence behind it. It's beyond just what it looks like.

Todd McLaughlin: 20:10

I agree. And I, and I don't think there's any way you're going to be able to Boris Aaron, because you've got a lot of great, fascinating insight. So, so thank you for saying that. But I don't think that's possible here. Um, that that's really cool. It seems like you've been able to develop grand appreciation for both ways of inspecting energy and or the universe. I'm curious once one question I've always had about the meridians is, if I imagined say, so if this comes from China, at some, you know, somebody is ill they go to the Chinese, the acupuncture and or Chinese medicine physician doctor? And how did they figure these meridians out? Do you think it was a process of deep meditation combined with let's just put either pressure via thumb or finger hand and or needle and then sit real deep and meditation and see where that pressure tends to send feeling and or awareness? Most consistently across the most a large test group? Or do you believe in the like, kind of it just came in a flash and a vision? And you know, like there was one, you know, like, like, like profit or, or somebody like, Lucky Guys, here's the meridians I figured it out. Do you have any sense? Have you have you come across that in your studies?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 21:58

Yeah, I think there were probably some great masters that really propelled it forward. But my understanding and is that we can all reinvent it with just by examining our own bodies. And so if I say like our body is the book that we have to study is written inside of it. And yes, I think people had to sit and meditate. I mean, they were Yogi's that because, or what we would call Yogi's because they were using those pathways as spiritual alchemy, alchemical practices or spiritual practices. And so they were, I think they were studying that within themselves. I mean, people were, I think, people were less distracted by all this. External. Yeah. Yeah, there's just a lot of interesting things to look at really fast right now on social medias, TV, and whatever. But I think maybe been people didn't even have electricity, to show that it was like, at night, it was you and your internal world. And you close your eyes, and you have to lay there and feel what's happening. Your movements inside the body? Probably they were experimenting on themselves and on on patients. Yeah. Yeah, imagine this exactly. What you said is how it was in that, you know, because it developed in many branches. It wasn't original profit, I don't know,

Todd McLaughlin: 23:47

in relation to, like, with. So like, you know, the first time I took a yoga class, I, there's yoga, like, it's yoga. So you go in, but then I had no idea. There was like this style, that style, this teacher associated with this specific style, and then you start, you know, but that first yoga class was like, it's just yoga like wooden every it's all yoga. So in the obviously, in the everything's like that, probably. So in the Chinese medicine world, there's a whole bunch of different schools of Chinese medicine, is that correct?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 24:19

For sure, yeah. At least as many as there are for yoga. Got it. And people that fully disagree with each other, like masters, that everyone vows to completely disagree about where the pathways points are, what they, what they're used for, how to do it, what kind of needle you know, there's there's many, many ways.

Todd McLaughlin: 24:45

Well, how do you rise above that dogma? Do you know have you been entrenched in Chinese medicine dogma and have to reinvent yourself so to speak out throughout the years or is that been really easy for you?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 25:01

Well, the thing is my teacher, I adhere to my main teacher, who was Dr. Mark seem. Now he's pretty radical. And probably a lot of people don't agree with his style. But if you read his books, I mean, I read his books before I ever met him. And they made me cry, because I was like, This is it. Wow, this is real. And he's American. And he was one of the first Americans to have an opinion, you know, to have the courage to have an opinion about Chinese medicine, you know, so, and, yeah. And he was also working directly with Janet Ravel who was one of the authors of the myofascial. Yes, devotion, and what it was a goldmine of actual pain and dysfunction. I think you're right. And so he was, he was working with her school, and studying trigger points. I mean, they he already on the school at that time, and she came and they sort of work together to develop and explore, you know, the similarities of dry needling for trigger points and traditional Chinese acupuncture. Which is, I mean, he was very political also. So he would always, and I don't know how much of this is fully accurate, but he would go on and on about how, you know, Chinese medicine was ruined, you know, during the communist revolution, because they, they took all of the spirituality out of it and systematized in a way that it could sort of be taught to the world interested in? Yeah, so he didn't buy any of that stuff. He said, Look, you have to memorize all this stuff to pass the board exam. But then that's not how you really do it. The way you really do acupuncture is very similar to bodywork. You have to feel the myofascial pathways, and see where they're stuck. And then you use the needle like a massage tool, kind of to release myofascial blockages or sort of, you know, the, the connective tissue can get sort of kicked up. I don't know why maybe because of strain, but also, because it's, there's no other way to explain it then chi flow or, or the flow of energy, subtle energy. So it was a much more in his book is called acupuncture physical medicine.

Todd McLaughlin: 27:45

Cool, check that out.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 27:48

You would love it, you would love it.

Todd McLaughlin: 27:50

Physical Medicine. Thank you. I, you know, you're the founder of science of self yoga and meridian yoga therapy. And, and you've written four books, I already made mention of the one that I have, I want to I'll get your other ones I promise. I have not finished. To be honest, I have not finished this one. Because there's a lot of information in this book. And I don't haven't studied them. I haven't studied Chinese meridians and I've gotten acupuncture a lot. And I've all I've heard these terms like triple heater and in I've heard about the anger associated with liver and like, like the real basic things. But as I found when I was reading your book in a moment, asked you a question about the triple heater, because I really liked the way that you explained it in your book. But can you explain now the the premise of the book and and the message that you aim to convey through it?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 28:47

Oh, I was just that was my first book. And I was just so excited that about how to put everything together, you know, yoga and Chinese and I was like, wow, oh my god, this is this is wild. Like the more I studied it, and researched and within my own practice, and I was like this, this is incredible. It's like it all lines up. And and so I just wanted to put it out there. And but you know, also, I think because a lot of times yoga is very externally focused. Also not not all yoga, obviously, but just kind of the general trend is is more external or real physical anatomy base like yeah, you know, Western anatomy and, and I think I think by putting them together and learning the energy pathways, I wanted to help people go deeper in their yoga practice. Look more inside and start to think about what kind of thoughts and feelings they have that are arising during During the practice, that that might be arising because of the practice specific poses, for example, could bring up specific types of emotion. Just kind of look deeper.

Todd McLaughlin: 30:13

Yeah, I think you've I think you achieved your goal because I, since I've been reading it, what now that I'm when I come in into my practice, I've it's shift. I mean, I've always I've had, I have appreciation for the subtlety and the inner environment. But with looking at the pictures with the lines, and then actually thinking about the lines, while I'm practicing has, it's a really amazing experience because it completely shifts the focus. And I don't know, maybe I'm thinking like, Oh, I wonder if I'm doing my pose good enough. And like, you know, is it deep enough for do I, you know, that type of thing where, like you said, very externally focused. And so to start to visualize the energy lines and or feel where there's the most amount of or least amount of sensation in each pose. I was like, Whoa, that's a really amazing concept. It's cool. I can I can see how you were like,

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 31:17

pick your show, right? The

Todd McLaughlin: 31:18

pictures are unbelievable. Like when I first found you on Instagram, I love the way that you put the the lines on there. I don't know if you want to you maybe don't want to give away your trade secret. And I completely understand but how do you even How do you do that? How are you getting? Oh, yeah, like the Photoshop? Do you do that? Or do you have someone do it for you?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 31:43

I had somebody do the the the ones are in the book were done by someone else. Now I do my own.

Todd McLaughlin: 31:52

Very cool.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 31:55

I had one girl that helped me with it in the beginning. But I had done some Photoshop stuff before. So okay. It's not an app. Photo.

Todd McLaughlin: 32:07

I was gonna say it looks a little more complicated than a 299. app. Yeah, which which, which is why I really hope that everybody listening goes and checks out your your Instagram will be maybe the easiest way and or your website, but um, it's so cool. So then to get a little bit deeper in on the meridian. And I want to keep this simple, so that those for myself, as well as our listeners. So I hope this question isn't too hard to answer. But can you explain the brilliance behind the 12 regular meridians? And then I saw that you mentioned the eight extra ordinary channels and like, what are some of the unique characteristics? Is that something you can even tackle in a one hour podcast? Yeah. All right, cool.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 32:59

So the 12 regular meridians deal with physiological processes. Of course, this is an oversimplification, but physiological processes and emotions. And they form a circuit. So the, there's 12, and they're named after the organs that you would recognize, like the heart, the small intestine, the long large intestine, etc, right. And, and the energy there, they form a circuit, like I said, in a specific order, and they all connect says one energy moving through these 12 is 12 parts of the circuit. And those pathways don't exist in trees, take your first breath when you're born. So that is closely related to the diaphragm and the movement of the breath. That's moving the subtle energy through the body. And just, you know, the functioning of the body like digestion, but also thinking and feeling. You know, eliminating breathing, reproduction.

Todd McLaughlin: 34:11

That's fascinating. So that's also happens when you breathe. It's not something in utero.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 34:18

Yeah, they don't exist. Those don't those 12 regular ones don't exist, until you take your first breath. That's cool, which I found really, that really helped me understand the importance of the diaphragm.

Todd McLaughlin: 34:35

That's interesting.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 34:37

Right? It is, because it has everything to do with stress. And sort of I mean, just the diaphragm is a very interesting kind of semi unconscious muscle. I think we can learn to control

Todd McLaughlin: 34:54

I don't want to interrupt your train of thought but when you said there's like 12 tracks if I envision say, like a racetrack where there's like a circle loop. And then like, if there's 12 separate loops, do they all intersect at like a single point? Or is it that they're all just criss crossing each other? You know what I mean?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 35:15

They're criss crossing overlapping, but so the 12, regular meridians, they all connect to the organs. And then they either go into the fingers or the toes, like a specific finger, it's like, okay, let's say the energy starts in your solar plexus. This is where the circuit starts. And then it goes through the lungs, and then it goes into your thumb. And then it goes into your index finger, and then it goes up to your face, and then it goes down to your second toe. I mean, those I just named three different pathways. Got it? Right there. So it alternates zigzags, criss crosses all over the body carrying energy. Right, so that's the 12. And yesterday about the eight, I did extraordinary. And so those are different. And they do not form a circuit, they all flow upwards, with the exception of the belt VESA, which goes horizontal. And they sort of a lot of them start in the pelvic floor and go up, similar to the 90s, the three central channels

Todd McLaughlin: 36:32

in yoga, interesting, but

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 36:34

they are there before you're born. Hmm.

Todd McLaughlin: 36:39

Yeah, what do you think the significance is of that is that there's these ones before you're born, and then all of a sudden, these 12 kick in once you start breathing.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 36:51

I'm trying to figure that out. Like, it's just a journey for me, because it's really easy for me to understand the 12 regular ones, because, you know, as a, as a doctor of acupuncture treating patients, they have ordinary problems, right, so they want their digestion to be better, or their back pain, or they need to be able to sleep better. And so I'm thinking about those physiological processes in the myofascial pathway. And that's easy, it's harder for me to really fully grasp the extraordinary vessels. And I have mainly focused my interest on the the three that are very similar to the noddies of the Yoga, you know, your, the Sushumna, EDA and Pingala, or the Sun Moon channel and the central channel. So there's three in three out of the eight extraordinary vessels are very similar to those. They run up the center. And I've really focused on trying to understand those and how they can be used in deeper meditation and spiritual practice.

Todd McLaughlin: 38:12

Interesting. Is there any correlation and or similarity between prana and apana? So prana up movement, and upon a down movement in relation to that you said the eight, extraordinary seven of them are all going up. Do you think there's there's no downward one? Is that interesting? That seems a little odd. But maybe it does. I know, maybe the 12 take care of that, because it's pulling it, it's pulling it down to your toes into your fingers? And

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 38:47

yeah, because a prana and apana are sort of physiological energies. I mean, if you're talking about right, like elimination, I'm not really good at an Iron Maiden except but that would be kind of like the spleen which is a lifting energy. And then the stomach which is a downward energy, for example. There are there are certain energies that that rise up and that go down. But those are those are not so much related to the extraordinary that I know of, I mean, like I said, I'm not an ester. Eight extraordinary.

Todd McLaughlin: 39:32

Will great point. I mean, I hear you, I think, do you think there you have a whole lifetime to practice and study. I always kind of think I'll always be practicing and studying I've kind of don't like I mean, I guess there's a nice ideal about mastering something but it almost seems like it's like you said there in terms of when we study science and realize that we don't really know much Like we don't like I kind of I'm okay now thinking that I won't ever really know everything. Maybe until I pass away? I don't know. But while I'm alive, I figure I think that's a really good answer probably to always be like a really receptive student or like a really open student always curious, always wanting to study always trying to figure it out.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 40:21

Well, that's really think you figured it out? You're probably wrong. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yes. Especially with something so, so mysterious as these pathways that you can't see, and they were there before you were born? You know what I mean? Like, how are you really gonna figure that all out? In a way that you could explain it to? Word?

Todd McLaughlin: 40:44

Good point. I know that you haven't. I hear ya, I hear you. I saw that you offer a lot of trainings like teacher trainings and different types of trainings. Can you talk about, like I saw, I think today on Instagram, you posted some graduates of a recent training that you held? Can you explain a little bit what you're trying to teach these students are these yoga students, or these acupuncture students, or both that are coming to study and practice with you?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 41:15

Well, we have different intensives is, some of them are really more into traditional yoga, where we studied the traditional yoga texts like the hospital identica and the Yoga Sutras. And, I mean, we always use a little bit of the meridians because it's just so helpful. But then some of the trainings like the meridian yoga therapy stuff is more about a more therapeutic style of yoga and also acupressure. I mean, we're teaching acupressure techniques, how to release. Well, my favorite one is the diaphragm release in abdominal massage. Getting into the abdominal points in organs abdominal diagnosis, and using the spinal point diagnostically. There's, we we learn a lot of techniques that are healing on all levels, healing and releasing stuck. Emotion. Breathing, you know that my favorite thing about those trainings is getting people if it's in person is getting people to do hands on work who's never done it? Yeah, that's good. And to realize that they can do it. It's, it's right. That's what we were made to do. You don't have to be special, you don't have to know very much. You just have to learn how to feel. And

Todd McLaughlin: 42:54

can you explain pay attention? That sounds like a good point. To feel and pay attention. How do you teach? How do you teach people how to feel? Attention? Do you have? Do you have a methodology to going about because it sounds simple. But it's, I think to feel hard to teach someone to feel, I guess my first thought was meaning like, teach someone how to put their hands on someone's abdomen and feel so there's the first level of like feeling the surface skin. But I'm guessing with the training you've had your palpation skill can get a little more fine tuned where maybe like what what can what can you feel when you palpate someone's abdomen? What type of things are you able to pick up on?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 43:48

I mean, I tell people, Look, I can tell you what you're supposed to look for. Right? But if you touch 1000 people's abdomen, then you will know what an abdomen normally feels like. And what an abdomen is tight in the upper right quadrant or whatever. You know, you will know an abdomen that has like liver or stomach or large intestine, you will just know or kidney. But you have to touch 1000 people and look at the rest of their complaints. They come in with a headache, right? There's different kinds of headaches. But that's one piece of information. Oh wow. You you listen to the sound of their voice. You look at their skin tone, sort of how they sit, you know their body language and stuff and you touch their abdomen. And then that's that's one piece of data, all of that, that you add to the to your to your brain, you know, and then after you've done that 1000 times or 10,000 times I've done a lot, not 10 times. But like in 10 years later, that's how you learn. No one can teach you that you have to just do it. You just like yoga, it's exactly like yoga. Dharma Mitra can tell you to sit there and close your eyes and look at your space between your eyebrows. But until you do it for 1020 years, you're not going to know why. Or you're not going to know what's there. Until you just do it. Right. So I just tell people, I mean, the main thing is to get people to feel like it's okay to do that, like you can. In a safe space with consent, you can, you can work on each other. Say, I'm going to work, I'm going to press in your abdomen, and you're going to breathe into your abdomen while I'm pressing on it. And we're going to see what happens. You're going to tell me what you feel. And I'm going to tell you what I feel. And that's it. That's profound. That is, because nobody, nobody takes the opportunity to do that. Really. Not nobody, but you know, it's not, it's not a normal thing to do.

Todd McLaughlin: 46:11

That's a great point, Dr. Rose. That's cool. Just bringing it down, it's pulling it down a notch a couple notches. Here, you guys, let's just chill for a minute, I want you to feel abdomens, and just talk about it and see what you what you notice that's so then I'm guessing this is a pretty deep technique, though, because obviously, I know from my Thai massage training in Thailand, they really put so much emphasis on the abdomen, and they would do some very deep abdominal massage work, to the point where I had moments where I thought, I'm not gonna make it. I'm not gonna make it through this experience. Afterward, I'd feel so good. But during Oh, I mean, it's so intense. So, and I mean, yeah, talking about emotions coming up. And I know, like in classic Western massage world, like if we go for like good old fashioned Swedish massage training, you know, they'll show us how to, you know, move the drape, so the chest is covered, move the drape, so the, you know, the, just the abdomen is showing, and then, you know, do some classic effleurage techniques on the abdomen, and you're done. And then you go work in the spa, and you're like, it's so much work to move the drape around, you know, like, maybe I'll just skip the stomach. And then no one does it. A lot of people are like, you know, also like, I'm really self conscious about my stomach. So I don't know that I want you touching my stomach. And it's, it's a it's a it's a sensitive area for a lot of people and but it's so amazing. So I'd love to hear even a little bit more what you've learned over the years facilitating these types of experiences with people what type of reactions you've seen, and and maybe how people have benefited from this?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 48:10

Well, I mean, I'm lucky because I work with people that do a lot of yoga and take care of themselves. For one thing, not not, I mean, most people that are studying that stuff do. But I say that because I've worked with people in other circumstances, who don't take care of themselves. I mean, I worked in a Harm Reduction Center, where people are actively using drugs and you cannot do abdominal massage. Because there's too much disease and toxicity, even on a gross physical level. Not to mention emotional trauma. So part of part of doing abdominal massage is what it is that you're going to work with people who already stretched in breeze and ate a fairly healthy diet and drink some water. You know what I mean? Like they have a basic awareness and interest in healing as they may have. Yeah, people you're right. People are like a little funny about the abdomen, but part of it also is the confidence of the practitioner. You know, if I, as a practitioner am worried about my own abdomen, and then I can't and I haven't dealt with my own then it's gonna be hard for me to work with somebody else and make them feel safe. And, and or make them just not, it is safe, but it's also just make them feel like this is normal. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just going to present these points. This is normal. This is not unusual at all. Like I do this all the time. And you don't say it with words, but you say it with your hands. And when Yeah, I think that abdominal A massage. To me, it's the navel you just, there's there's a few things like the diaphragm, the navel, the armpits. And you can't do that on somebody immediately. Good. So we, you, we work in the hands and the feet, and then we work in toward the center. But if somebody's done two hours of Asana in an hour of pranayama, right before, then you can go right into it. You can work on the navel, the diaphragm and the armpits. And you're done. And it's profound.

Todd McLaughlin: 50:35

Can you? That sounds awesome. I, I wanted to come take, I want to come take a training with you. With your group. It sounds it sounds amazing. I am going I will. Um, can you talk a little bit about the armpit because that that isn't an area that I really focusing on with people? Can you explain what your thoughts are there with that? Yeah.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 51:03

So the armpit it in terms of meridians is the heart meridian. And which is not what you would guess is probably long, too, in terms of the pec minor being kind of up in there, on the front side. So it's also the rotator cuff. It's because you have the subscapularis muscle, which is the hidden part of the rotator cuff. And it's also the part that tends to be overdeveloped and tight compared to the other parts of the rotator cuff, which really can string not on everybody, but typically. So it's a very intimate place. And it tends to be ticklish. For some reason, which I think is probably a defense mechanism. And when our if somebody tells me they have a shoulder problem, I know if they will let me go in their armpit. I can at least change it, I can make it a little bit better, if not completely eliminated.

Todd McLaughlin: 52:13

When you're when you're saying that are you mentioning like coming in round from the lateral border of the scapula and trying to scoop in and get on the subscapularis from the lateral border versus like the vertebral side? The obviously will the vertebral side obviously isn't where you're going to get in the armpit. But it's what some of your focuses is to come around and get subscapularis from that lateral side, which does have you really close to the armpit

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 52:43

where we're going in the armpit so that you

Todd McLaughlin: 52:48

are going right into the armpit. Right? Yeah. Okay. All right. Fair enough.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 52:53

Yeah, you'll be phased out in I call it the deepest sweatiest part of your armpit. That's, that's where we're going

Todd McLaughlin: 53:02

and kind of dig in on that area. Hmm.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 53:05

I mean, first of all, you have to cut off your fingernails.

Todd McLaughlin: 53:10

Yeah, no, Felix NOFO acrylic nails.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 53:14

Right? It is no, it's no, you know, you don't want to poke around and dig around. Because you just say act like you know what you're doing. Just go right and go straight in and just hold it. You don't have to move around. You just press into it. And what it really does is it brings awareness to it. So, you know, in the body, because there's no awareness there usually. And when the body recognizes Oh, wow, I didn't know that was there. I didn't know it was tight. I know there. Yeah, then it sort of heals itself. It's like, oh, that was too tight. Why am I holding that tight, and then it just relaxes. So you can just press you know, firmly, confidently present to this armpit is in an amazing release,

Todd McLaughlin: 54:07

actually, and in relation to the heart meridian. So you're finding that do you see like, after you've worked with 1000 to 10,000 Different armpits? Is there like, when we think of the heart we usually think of love so like a a like, it can trigger or like an emotional released in relation to feeling an increase of love? Or can it work in the kind of counter effect where if I have if I'm not letting love in my life that then I might have some sort of sad response but then ultimately, that would lead toward a opening of feeling more love what pretty much it

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 54:54

well, sad and you gotta remember, it's complicated. It's not this is not a linear science. But yeah, Also any, any relief could come out of sadness, because crying, sadness is letting go. So it could have been anger, and then you cry. And now the anger is gone. It could have been that you lost someone like grief, and then you cry. You know what I mean? The Crying can be so. But as far as the heart, I think, in my experience, it'll have to do with relationships, and deep close intimate relationships. And in the pain associated with those, what, you know, where you really were in love and open your heart, someone and then it's not, it's not going the way that we're supposed to go? You know, because you open it's like you, you allowed something really deep in and it hurt. It could be heartbreak or loneliness also, I think. And yeah, that's pretty common. Yeah. A little bit of that a little bit. Yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 56:15

Another element that I came, I came across in your book that that really got me thinking is the principle of asymmetry in relation to the outer body in the inner body got me thinking like, like, I have a right side and the left side and my right hand and my left hand look pretty symmetrical to each other. But then when I go into my internal organs, you know, the, the kidneys over here, explains over there. And so there's this asymmetry. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 56:48

Yeah, um, I think that explains the struggle that we feel sometimes when if you meditate, and you're sitting there and you're like, Why do I feel like I'm so crooked? You know, yeah, and then if you look in the mirror, you don't really look that crooked, but inside, because we're not, we're not symmetrical. I mean, the ever all the organs are asymmetrical by design. And so and, you know, the digestive tract is a giant tube of muscle. So it's, it's, it's a muscle can pull on your, on your spine, you know, I mean, I don't know the specific way in which it would pull I guess it depends on your body or what, you know, what you're eating and stuff like that. But the digestive tract can create some tension inside some spiraling type, tension. And then the the liver, you know, that all of these delivers very heavy, or especially when it has a lot of wood, and it's attached by ligaments, you know, asymmetrically from the inside to the spine into the abdominal wall. And so there's like this internal struggle that is unconscious. But we can start to tell, we can sort of tell like, I feel twisted, you know, like, what's wrong with me? So people always say, like, I think it's because I sit weird at my desk, I'm like, maybe, but also, maybe not.

Todd McLaughlin: 58:25

There's an internal struggle that we have, that we have no control over. We don't know.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 58:34

If we do ultimately, because that's why diet is so important. You know, eat a clean diet, drink enough water, don't don't drink alcohol, don't drink a massive amount of caffeine, just to get through the day, you know, because it's gonna affect but also the emotions and the sympathetic nervous system or the autonomic nervous system is affecting the functioning of the organs. And so that a lot of it is is also our thoughts, which we can control to some extent. And that is creating these these twisting from the inside. It's real.

Todd McLaughlin: 59:15

It's so interesting. I love thinking about Yes. Dr. Rosarian are I always scheduled for an hour and I am so appreciative you to just take time out of your schedule to speak with me and and I but I feel like it's gone by so fast. I'm like, how did that just happen? And I, I kind of have I've just just started getting I just started, I just started getting going. So but I don't want to hold I know you're busy and I know you have appointments and things going on today. Is there a chance in the future? We could do this again?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 59:55

Sure. I would love to. It's really an honor. I really appreciate your questions there. they're really interested.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:00:01

Well, thank you. Thank you. I really I appreciate that. Is there? Is there something to close with? Can you leave us with any advice and or inspiration or insights? Beyond what you have beyond what you have already shared with us? And content and content? You don't have to go there? Yeah. But is there anything that comes to mind that you'd like to help close our session with?

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 1:00:33

I just say, you know, look within, because I know that's cliche, but look within and we're on doctors, you can, you can go to a doctor and making and sometimes it really helps, and, if necessary, will also for First of all, sit still just go look inside. And, and you'll find you'll find out exactly what it is this bothering you. And it'll resolve itself, just by awareness. And have faith, you know, have faith in that. There. We're here for a purpose. And that we are loved. That's what

Todd McLaughlin: 1:01:15

Oh, that's perfect. I needed to hear that today. Thank you. That was really good. Man. Well, thank you, Dr. Rose. Aaron, I'm so excited. I was so excited about this, you know, we had scheduled before, and we had a storm coming here to Florida. And I had my podcast gear all set up. And I'm like, I got it timed perfectly. And then I got to the bridge. And it was shut down. And then I had to double back around to the other bridge. And you were you were gracious enough. I called you as I was driving. And I was trying not to stress out I was trying to relax. I was like, No, I'm gonna I come back to make it. So I'm just really thankful that you were as sweet and kind and just like, Hey, you, you didn't plan this, like it's not your fault. So. But thank you so much for rescheduling and taking time out of your day. And I thoroughly enjoyed this and I'm I love having the chance to speak with other people that are live in this every day. And it just gives me a ton of inspiration. And I really hope that I can squeeze a little time out of my schedule and come and study with you. And I get a lot of information out of your everything you're putting out is absolutely amazing. So keep going. Keep keep going for. Yeah.

Dr. Rose Erin Vaughn: 1:02:37

Thanks for the work you're doing too. All right.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:02:40

You know all great work. I appreciate that. Thank you have a great day. Take care, take care. Native yoga Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it and review and join us next time